I'm slowly going back over all the exercises in Learning Irish and I've been coming across a few things here and there that are confusing, so I thought I'd make a thread to keep all my questions in one place, or for anyone else who has questions to ask about. Any help would be muchly appreciated.

Right now I'm working on Lesson 15, exercises B 1-6. The answer key gives:

'Céard atá tú a dhéanamh.'
and
'Céard atá sibh a iarraidh.'

Something about these seems odd to me. I'd expect 'ag déanmamh' and 'ag iarraidh', which I've heard in use before. Are both acceptable or is one more correct than the other?

Thanks in advance,
-Mike

I'd translate "Céard atá tú a dhéanamh" as "what are you to do?" and "What are you doing?" and "Céard atá sibh a iarraidh?" -- "What are you asking (for) / seeking / wanting etc"

Having been rearead on West Cork Irish as taught by the Christian Brothers I would not feel comfortable with that construction.

Given the opportunity I'd say "Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?" for "what are you doing?" and "Céard atá á iarraidh acu?" for "What are they seeking?" The latter could also be expressed as "Céard atá uathu?" "What do they want?"

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Id also translate it as what are you doing/ what are wanting.

I amn't able to explain the grammar well all I can say is for me it wouldn't feel natural to say 'ag déanamh' instead of 'a dhéanamh'. I'd say just keep learning Irish and then you get a feel for what would be natural and what isn't.

Id use ag déanamh in a sentence like 'tá mé ag déanamh staidéir'. I dont know why you wouldnt after Céard atá tú a dhéanamh, you just don't!

By the way, not taking away from Daltaí but there is a dedicated forum to Learning Irish http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=cac7625e4e40bb410076d 563369eb8e1 you may find people who have studied the book there

In the examples above it's to do with the relative clause. More precisely it happens whenever something (commonly a relative clause) scrambles up the normal word order, separating the verbal noun from its object.

For example:
Tá cat ag ól na bainne.
Is é an cat dubh atá ag ól na bainne.

but:
Is é an leamhnacht* atá sé a ól.
Níl sé a ól ach an t-uachtar.


*leamhnacht = bainne úr

A Mremic01, a chara,

I'm quite sure both of these sentences are correct at least in Connemara Irish which I take you're studying. Indeed, I learnt "céard atá tú a dhéanamh" from my own native-speaker teacher in Carraroe. As Abigail explained, the "a + Lenited verbal noun" refers back to the word "céard" at the beginning of the phrase, which has a similar value as, say, the word "an teach" in a phrase like "sin é an teach atá mé a thógáil". The lenition is due to the fact that "an teach" is masculine.

Having said that, Jeaicín is probably right that there are more idiomatic ways of expressing both ideas, such as "céard atá uait" and "céard atá ar siúl agat". But grammatically speaking, both of your examples are quite sound, I think.

quote:

Níl sé a ól ach an t-uachtar.

I don't understand why you don't have "ag" in this one : the object is after the verbal noun so normally you should have "ag".
(And bainne is masculine : ag ól an bhainne :-) )

quote:

the word "an teach" in a phrase like "sin é an teach atá mé a thógáil". The lenition is due to the fact that "an teach" is masculine.

no, in this kind of sentence, the "a" before the verbal noun is a form of the preposition "do" and then it lenites the verbal noun, no matter what is the gender of the object.
You would say
An fear atá mé a thabhairt 'na bhaile
An bhean atá mé a thabhairt 'na bhaile
Na daoiní atá mé a thabhairt 'na bhaile

In some dialects (especially in certain Donegal ones) you can also use "ag" in this case, as in Scottish Gaelic.

Thanks for the correction, Lughaidh! Indeed, I assumed wrongly that this structure was related to the passive voice which distinguishes between genders (e.g. á dhéanamh (masc.), á déanamh(fem.)).

The rule you mention also appears in the Christian Brothers' Grammar under point 18.19:

An réamhfhocal "a" a úsáidtear:
•nuair atá an cuspóir ina réamhtheachtaí don chlásal ina bhfuil a ainm briathartha:
"nach deas an obair atá Cáit a dhéanamh?" "céard a chuala tú Beairtle a chanadh?"

The Brothers go on to say "Ní ceart in aon cheann de na ceithre chás thuas an séimhiú a bhaint den ainm briathartha agus "ag" a chur in ionad an amhfhocail "a"", but I suppose this applies to the Caighdeán.

There are many structures in Irish which are almost unknown to us casual learners who pick up our Irish here there and everywhere. This thread has been most informative for me and I thank Mremic01 for starting it and Macfear, Abigail, Lughaidh, and Onuvanja for their contributions. I look forward to more examples ...

Abigail, an bhfuil "bainne" firinscneach nó baininscneach?

quote:

The Brothers go on to say "Ní ceart in aon cheann de na ceithre chás thuas an séimhiú a bhaint den ainm briathartha agus "ag" a chur in ionad an amhfhocail "a"", but I suppose this applies to the Caighdeán.

Yes. Because if many Gaeltacht native speakers use "ag" it means it is right in their dialect. Not in the caighdean, maybe, but right in their dialect.

Ta bainne firinscneach in Ultaibh agus ta sé firinscneach i gCois Fhairrge fosta de réir Learning Irish. Cha dtearr mé taighde maidir leis na canuinti eile.

Tá sé firinscneach i ngach áit go bhfios dom. Taom eicínt díchéille a bhuail mé.

quote:

Níl sé a ól ach an t-uachtar.

I don't understand why you don't have "ag" in this one : the object is after the verbal noun so normally you should have "ag".

Because it's separated from the verbal noun (in this case by "ach".) The order isn't what matters here, it's the separation. "Ag" is used, and the object goes into the genitive, only if it immediately follows the verbal noun (or an adverb qualifying it, e.g. ag tabhairt isteach an chapaill.)

[reference (for standard Irish) GGBC 18.19]

quote:

[reference (for standard Irish) GGBC 18.19]

Mmm, maybe it's only standard Irish (or at least non-Ulster Irish). I'm almost sure I've heard and read plenty of sentences with ag+vn+ach+noun, but I guess they were not in standard Irish :-) So both of us were right :-)

I can't speak for Ulster (obviously) and would be interested to see some counterexamples there, but this is the way it goes in Connemara Irish - and apparently at least part of Ulster too. Here's John Ghráinne for you:

quote:

Anois níl na hamaidí a rá ach an fhírinne. Ba é teacht na coláiste - cuireadh eagar ar thithe. Feisteadh tithe. Cuireadh – fuarthas trioc isteach nach raibh acu de ghnáth. Agus ón bheagán go dtí an mórán, d’fhág siad tithe níos fearr agus níos slachtmhaire acu ná a bhí acu roimhe sin.

source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/page03.s html

Of course you could say well, that might have been an "ag" after all and was simply elided; you'd need a verbal noun starting with a vowel or a lenitable consonant to be 100% sure. However, the "ag" is written out in other places before a consonant (e.g. "a bhí ag coinneáil scoláirí" in the paragraph immediately preceding the one I've quoted) and I think that's probably indicative.

quote:

Anois níl na hamaidí a rá ach an fhírinne.

Cinnte. Rinn duine ineacht an trascriobh dar urt John, ni hé féin a scriobh sin agus chonaic mé meancogai go minic ins an trascriobh, rudai nar urt John. Sompla amhain - ni meancog i ach teisteanann sé nach ionann an trascriobh agus caint John : "tithe". Ach deirtear "toithi" in Ultaibh agus bheadh iontas orm da mbeadh t caol ag John ins an fhocal sin.

So ni cruthu ar bith é sin.
Ma deireann sé "nil na hamaidi [ə] ra ach an fhirinne", cha dtig leat fhios a bheith agad ab é "ag" no "a' " a d'urt sé.
So bheadh tilleadh cruthaioch do dhith orm :-)

Nó tuilleadh frithshamplachais de dhíth ormsa! :)

Go raibh maith agaibh. Your answers have been insightful. Well, kind of confusing, but still insightful :)

For what it's worth, I've found some similar constructions later in the texts, but this is the one I can find right now:

'Ceannaigh seanrud agus bí gan aon rud' a bhí daoine a rá.