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óseanacháin
Member Username: óseanacháin
Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2011
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 10:23 am: | |
Earlier I asked about the strength of County Clare Irish. I was dissapointed to get responses saying that the dialect went extinct in the 90's. Now, however I recalled the gaelscoileanna. I have subsequently found that there are 4 primary gaelscoileanna as well as a post primary gaelscoil. Now here is the question. Are they using Clare Irish? Or is it a general Munster (though not specifically Clare) dialect? Ect. Ect. Thoughts? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3989 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 11:56 am: | |
I don't think there are many non-native speakers who try to speak Clare Irish. It isn't easy to learn such dialect. And there are even fewer chances that those people, if they exist, are teachers, and even fewer chances that if there are such teachers, they do teach in Clare... I'm not even sure all Gaelscoil teachers teach in the area that corresponds to their dialect. But maybe someone else will have good news about that... Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Jeaicín
Member Username: Jeaicín
Post Number: 221 Registered: 01-2011
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 12:39 pm: | |
Just because the language ceased to be used as a public community language did not mean that it was not still transmitted to a greater or lesser degree in some families. The decline or change or shift is gradual. Obviously Irish-speaking monoglots do not exist any more and transmission of Irish as a first language had probably ceased in their young days. There are old people with some knowledge of Irish who remember them. When children come home from school with homework and phrases to practise and learn the parents and grandparents can display their own knowledge of Irish. Irish doesn't die instantaneously. Gaelscoileanna can give basic fluency and confidence. A job requiring Irish can bring such a person up to near-native-speaker competence. If you are concerned about the Clare dialect of Irish have you ever heard the Clare dialect of English? It is not easy to discard a language completely. Is a bilingual Ireland such a failure? I think the status of Irish has risen to such a degree that Irish-speakers are now recognised as well-educated and respected. Surely that is to be welcomed and the loss of the distinctive dialects of long ago not such a tragedy. |
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óseanacháin
Member Username: óseanacháin
Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2011
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 01:18 pm: | |
I would hardly call bilingual Ireland a failure. I would call it a success, Jeaicín. But I would also like to see it as a stepping stone towards (I know it is dream) an Ireland where Irish is know better thatn english, nationally. An example of what I mean is germany. Most everyone can speak English... but German is most definately better know and there a few people who know only German. I realize it just doesn't die, but the more preserved the language is, the better! I understand and agree with your logic on the older Irish speakers influencing the younger Gaescoileanna attendees. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3990 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 05:25 pm: | |
quote:It is not easy to discard a language completely. It depends. Take an example I know well, Breton. In most areas of Western Brittany, the language shift happened like this: - people born before 1914: only Breton-speaking (some managed to learn some French) - people born between the 2 wars: only Breton-speaking, but they've learnt French at school, and now they are fluent in both. But they've raised up their children through French only (for several complicated reasons) - people born after the 2nd war: understand Breton, can speak it a little bit, but speak only French at home - their children (and grandchildren): don't know a word of Breton There are very few exceptions. So, it is possible to kill a language within one century. Fortunately, in most Gaeltachtai of Ireland, people have transmitted their language to their children. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11700 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 03:27 am: | |
quote:Fortunately, in most Gaeltachtai of Ireland, people have transmitted their language to their children. Sin croí na ceiste; agus níl sé chomh fíor & ba mhaith liom é a bheith. Ach is cosúil go bhfuil cóir na gaoithe leis an dteanga arís sna Gaeltachtaí atá fágtha. Spéisiúil go leor is daoine ó lasmuigh, atá dícheallach, is mó atá ag spreagadh muintir na Gaeltachta maidir leis seo. |
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Jeaicín
Member Username: Jeaicín
Post Number: 222 Registered: 01-2011
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 11:24 am: | |
Lughaidh's description of the language shift in Brittany is almost identical to what I see in the Gaeltacht with one exception: the children born to those who still understand Irish are educated in a school system that includes a good standard of Irish. I know people can argue as to "how good is "a good standard"" but the gifted children aquire fluency even in non-Gaeltacht schools and the middle group of "average ability" have a degree of familiarity with the language that would provide a wonderful foundation for afterschool activity clubs to build on if they could be provided and persuaded to use Irish mostly. Where there's a will there's a way and I believe the "Irish Revival" is far more advanced than those who oppose it realise. It is also far more advanced than despairing native-speakers realise. They see the best Irish speakers being lowered into the grave almost daily and yet can't or won't speak Irish to their own children or to their neighbours children. If the morale of Irish-speakers could be roused the language would be safe for another generation. Look at the facilities we have now: An tIdirlíon, Ríomhphost, YouTube, na meáin shóisialta ... In the early days of "Athbheochan na Gaeilge" it was almost impossible to get even one copy of a passage in written Irish never mind an audio file. Now ....! Raidio na Gaeltachta, TG4, Gaelscéal, Foinse, Beo ... Bíonn daoine ag éisteacht agus ag léamh ... Coinnímis orainn! Tá ag éirí linn. |
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óseanacháin
Member Username: óseanacháin
Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2011
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 11:41 am: | |
That is a good point. The thing that needs to occur is that people need to converse in the language in public. I don't live in Ireland (yet) and have yet to see Ireland, and so I don't know to what extent people use it. I watch TG4 live via web feed frequently, and it seems like they find quite a few people who speak the language at least adequetly enough to interview in various places and events, although the occasional person speaks english. Now my query is if these Irish speakers actually converse with their friends in Irish outside of the interview or if they speak english and merely have a knowledge of Irish. To further the language it needs to be spoken between people who have a knowledge of it.... particularly in public. |
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Brídmhór
Member Username: Brídmhór
Post Number: 179 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 01:07 pm: | |
Duine go sheisear mise, as an gceathrar a bhfuil clann acub ní thóig ach dearthár amháin a chlann le Gaeilge. |
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Jeaicín
Member Username: Jeaicín
Post Number: 223 Registered: 01-2011
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 02:56 pm: | |
Cad a thug air é sin a dhéanamh nuair nach ndearna an chuid eile? Nó leis an gceist a chur i slí eile meas tú cad chuige nár thóg an chuid eile clann le Gaeilge? Céile gan Ghaeilge nó easpa suime? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11701 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 03:25 pm: | |
Mo chás beagnach mar an gcéanna. Dhá chúis domsa. Chaith mé seal ar imirce, rud a dhaingnigh m'fhéiniúlacht. Nuachar eachtrannach, gan bagáiste i leith na teangain, agam. |
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Brídmhór
Member Username: Brídmhór
Post Number: 180 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 04:44 pm: | |
quote:Céile gan Ghaeilge nó easpa suime? Chaon chúis. Tá mo dheirfiúr ina cónaí i Sasana, níl focal Gaeilge ag a fear. So is féidir é mhaitheadh di. :) An bheirt deartháir eile - duine sa nGalltacht, agus duine sa nGaeltacht, tá Gaeilge ag na mná ach ní Gaeilge a gcéad dteanga. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3991 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 05:24 pm: | |
Ach ni cuis mhaith i, bheith 'do chonai taobh amuigh dn Ghaeltacht, le gan Gaeilg a labhairt le do phaisti. Do ghnath nuair a théid daoini a chur faofa i dtir eile, leanann siad do bheith 'labhairt na teangtha sa bhaile. Ach cha dtarlann sin leis a' Ghaeilg agus nil's agam tuighe. Da mbeinn féin agus mo chailin 'nar gconai i dtir eile agus paisti againn, labhairfeasmaid Gaeilg is Briotainis is Fraincis leofa. Mor an truaighe nach ndéanann achan chainteoir duchais é, ta Gaeilg i bhfad nios fearr acu na ata agamsa... Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Cead_ite
Member Username: Cead_ite
Post Number: 28 Registered: 01-2011
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 11:37 pm: | |
Is mór an truaí é muis... |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11702 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 05:18 am: | |
Is é mo thaithí féin go bhfuil a lán acu siúd a labhraíonn Gaeilge lena dteaghlach sa Ghalltacht pósta ar eachtrannach; sin nó go bhfuil Gaeilge ag an lánúin. Deacracht leis an dearca Anglafónach gur constaic seachas buntáiste an dátheangachas. |
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Jeaicín
Member Username: Jeaicín
Post Number: 225 Registered: 01-2011
| Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 12:19 pm: | |
Agus sa saol atá anois againn tugtar leanaí chuig creche agus cá bhfios cén teanga a labhraítear leo. Sa tréimhse réamhscoile seoltar chuig an naíonra iad agus cloiseann siad beagán Gaeilge ansin agus neart Béarla. Daingnítear forlámhas an Bhéarla sa bhunscoil - fiú sna gaelscoileanna - agus mua bhfuil suignificeant odar a labhraíonn Gaeilge agus Gaeilge amháin leis an leanbh ní shealbhóidh siad an teanga. Réiteach na faidhbe seo? Pósaigí a chéile, a Ghaela! Agus tugaigí aire do bhur leanaí féin. Caithigí an jab agus an tuarastal in aer. |
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