An-suimiúil.

That is a very important article and well worth repeated study.

I particularly support this statement:

quote:

the Irish language community must retain its independence and radicalism through setting its own agenda based on its own needs.

and this:

quote:

“the re-conquest of Irish is the re-conquest of Ireland and the re-conquest of Ireland the salvation of Irish.”

We have a lot to learn and I look forward to reading more of Feargal MacIonnrachtaigh's analysis of the situation. He is obviously well-informed and able to cut through the non-stop flim fleam of the neo-colonialists.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Aonghuis. Arís!

Tá brón orm, ach ní haontaím leis an dearcadh atá ag údar an ailt, Feargal Mac Ionnrachtaigh.

Cinnte, rinneadh eagóir mhór ar Chaitlicigh agus ar lucht labhartha na Gaeilge i dTuaisceart Éireann ó thús an Phlandála. Ach ní hionann atá an scéal anois is a bhiodh sé roimh Chomhaontú na Cásca nó, go deimhin, cúpla bliain ó shin. Tá chuile chosúlacht ar an scéal go bhfuil sochaí nua ag teacht chun cinn de réir a chéile, sochaí ina mbeidh an dá phobal ar chomhchéim, a bheag nó a mhór.

Má táthar ag iarraigh an Ghaeilge a scaipeadh i measc an phobail uilig, na haontachtaí san áireamh, ní mór é a dhéanamh ar bhunús trasphobail agus ar bhealach dearfa. Ní hionadh gur beag an spéis a bheadh ar aontachach ar bith sa teanga, agus daoine áirithe ag maíomh go síor gur cóilíneach é!

Má thuig mé an t-alt i gceart, is éard atá ag cur as don údar i ndáiríre ná gur fhág an Stát na heagraisí áitiúla atá ag freastal ar fhíor-Ghaeilgeoirí an Tuaiscirt gan tacaíocht, leis an teanga a chur chun cinn thrí thionscadail thrasphobail. Tagaim leis gur droch an scéal é sin.

Ach, ar an taobh eile, má tá ó lucht labhartha na Gaeilge an áit atá ag an teanga i dTuaisceart a neartú, ba chóir díriú ar ghrúpaí eile chomh maith. Dhá mbeadh tuilleadh cainteorí ann thríd an bpobal ar fad, nach mbeadh sé níos éasca ag Gaeilgeoirí Bhóthar Seoighe, mar shampla, a gcuid cearta a éileamh?

Mar sin, chuirfinn fáilte agus fiche roimh thionscadail mar "Líofa2015". Agus fág Oliver Cromwell amach as an scéal, le do thoil!

PS. Gabhaigí mo leithscéal as fad na teachtairechta.

Sílim gurbh é an phointe a bhí aige gur sop in áit na scuaibe Líofa 2015.

Táimid cleachtaí ar sin sna 26 Contae: an bonn a bhaint de rudaí a bhfuil rath orthu, agus rud éigin lonrach ach gan fiúntas curtha in áit.

Briathra milse: ach ní bheathaíonn na briathra na bráithre, ná an teanga agus a pobal.

"We have a lot to learn and I look forward to reading more of Feargal MacIonnrachtaigh's analysis of the situation. He is obviously well-informed and able to cut through the non-stop flim fleam of the neo-colonialists."

Neo-colonialists? There is little difference between the two main communities in Northern Ireland in terms of language habits. The vast majority of both are native English speakers and I've seen no evidence that people are any hurry to change that (have Irish as their first language going forward).

Attacking the Ultach Trust is no surprise.

On the other hand, the strongest argument republicans can probably make is that speakers of other minority languages in the UK, such as Welsh, have more 'rights' than Irish speakers in NI. Few make this argument, however.

What would an Irish language Act achieve? The right for people to use a language in court that most of them speak much less fluently and confidently than English?

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 17, 2011)

quote:

a language ... ... that most of them speak much less fluently and confidently than English ...

These are people who have little opportunity to use the language at present. Their fluency has been achieved in spite of antipathy, ridicule, and hostility. If jobs depended on a good knowledge of Irish competence would follow. If Irish were accepted and respected in the society and given status in a Language Act families and communities could set about ensuring that future generations knew Irish well knowing that their aspirations were "officially" valued in the larger community. Without such Language Acts local officialdom can hope to wear down any enthusiasm that exists for increased use of the living Irish language in ordinary day to day life by attrition. "Ignore it and it will go away."

Even so, people speak their native language best, which is English for the vast majority. Has official status and legislation really done all that much for Irish in the Republic? Is further gov. involvement the answer?

People speak the language which they have most practice speaking best. That is why it is necessary to provide opportunities to speak minority languages.

Official status is not a panacea - but it has certainly slowed the decline in the 26 counties. It has also created spaces for Irish which otherwise would not be there. The main problem has been that official status has not been properly implemented and things which sounded wonderful on paper have not been implemented. The Official Languages act is slowly changing that.

quote:

people speak their native language best, which is English for the vast majority

There is an unknown number of people in Ireland who speak a patois of "Hiberno-English" using the rules of Irish pronunciation ["glasheen" - a little glass], structures ["That preesht was at us three years." - He spent three years with us, "'tis fwat he tauld us vwass to don't" etc] and vocabulary, ["Wouldn't you think they'd cut the buachaláns. The buachalán buí is in flower."] or ["Ara, that fella is all buaileam sciath" - He is forever boasting and making foolish promises or threats. "Buaileam sciath"- Let us beat the shield.]

The children of such speakers of "English" find little difficulty learning Irish. They already know and use many of the required elements of Irish in their own home language which although referred to as "English" is very far from the English spoken by native speakers in other parts of the Anglophone world and unintelligible to most. Ask any Primary teacher in rural Ireland.

Whenever I have a modest lottery win I hope to acquire a copy of this book -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grammar-Irish-English-Hibernian-Linguistics/dp/041514524 4/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

And I wouldn't mind a flick through this one as well -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Contact-Routledge-Germanic-Linguistics/dp/041526 6025/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

How are things, interesting you speak about this "dialect."

I'll say this in english for ye to get the grasp fully of it.

My father's people are from an old gaeltacht in Cork and as such he speaks a woeful form of english in every day parlance. He will say "can I have that geansaí off you, tis could and those buachaláns have been there with ages" in place of the correct form. I always thought it was gas to be honest. Interestingly he is still a fluent irish speaker AFTER his mother who spoke it almost always...

The grammar of Irish influenced their english instead of the other way round. He also says words like "taiscáin" instead of "a small bit" and "draidire" instead of "eejit."

The article leads to a blank web page.... could you give the name of the article and author please? I believe it is due to the fact that they're moving to a new web address.

This is it:
http://belfastmediagroup.com/language-doesn%E2%80%99t-decline-in-powerful-commun ites/

Language doesn’t decline in powerful communites
Feargal Mac Ionnrachtaigh

Rud a déarfainn leat, a Liam dhoinn, "bí i do chrann ar an mhuintir dár díobh thú" -- learn as much Irish as possible from your father and pass it on to your children. Give them pride. They have something to be proud of: their own family language. Don't turn your back on it. Don't neglect it. Learn it and use it. You can do it. I can't. Guím rath ort.

The English laguage indeed does what the article describes. "Globalism" has affected more than just Irish too, unfortunately. While in Germany I saw many english words used to replace traditional German ones. Cultures must be preserved. Those who argue for complete Globalism must only do so because they have no cultural identity or see themselves as part of a dominant culture. Not to say I don't see hope. In Ireland, Wales, and Scotland (as a vote for independence from Britain nears) I see cultural renewal and language growth, particular in the most important sector: the youth. The Gaelsoileanna I see as the future of Ireland and her children.

Here in America I think it would do wonders if the public school system somehow could have enough funds to also offer (or allow the students to petition classes) on languages lesser known than Spanish or French. I know for a fact that Japanese, German, or even Irish would have been welcomed at my high school and definately at my college. But there simply weren't teachers to teach it or funds to fund the classes....

I'm sorry if this was a bit off topic, but the dominance of English is so overpowering here that the article really made me think about that and how limited alternative languages are where I live.

Ceist agam ort, Sériál, did you intend "Sériál" to be an Irish language transliteration of Cheryl? If so I suggest "Teiril" or "Teirill" / "Seiril" or "Seirill" might come closer in pronunciation. ~ál would sound like ~awl in English rather than ~yl.

A propos of your message, I often think that being bilingual almost from infancy makes me and others like me very sensitive to other people's languages. Going on holidays to France or Spain always causes me to revise phrases like "I am sorry I speak [thelanguage] badly" followed by whatever request I might have. Invariably I get the response, "But No! You speak very well!" and then they show off their English, ask for my phone number, and vow to stay in touch for ever.

I exaggerate, of course. Nevertheless I have often seen people in other countries deliberately make no effort in response to tourists who assume they should know English well and get cross when met with incomprehension.

It all comes down to respect. Which brings me back to the topic of this thread: communities that enjoy power and status do not lose or abandon their language.

Think of the Flemings in Flanders, Northern Belgium and their response to French domination; or the Finns response to Swedish domination; the Lithuanian, Estonian, and Latvian responses to Russian domination.

If "democracy" means that the little people of no wealth and little influence get to keep their language and culture and have it supported and funded by a Government budget I am all for it.

Unfortunately for such "little" people if they happen to live over an oil-well or a gold-mine or even if they live on good agricultural land near an avaricious neighbour seeking expansion they will not only lose their language and culture but also their land, their homes, and even their lives.

It is wrong. Here in Ireland we have experience of how international financial gamblers work and have recently given away and lost our own hard-won sovereignty. Even the gamblers themselves, the banksters, are suffering although most seem to be doing better than us in their foreign hide-aways. None are in jail. Yet.

Tá brón orm faoin deviation - faoi imeacht den chonair.

Is maith Gaelscoileanna é. Gaelscoileanna are the answer to any doubters in the language. In relation to the article, they are the counter colonization ocurring that have been and are still reviving Gaeilge and Irish culture. But a point I would like to make is that that it would help so much if everyone, old or young, learned to speak it. It is my goal to learn this well enough to post in the Gaeilge only section. This is how the language will return.

Mar eolas, tá an bunleagan Gaeilge den alt seo le léamh ar Gaelscéal na seachtaine seo agus bhí an Dr. Mac Ionnrachtaigh le cloisteáil, in éineacht le hEoghan Ó Néill, ag caint ar an alt seo ar Chlár Rónán Beo @3:00 inniu.

Hi Jeaicín,

quote:

the Lithuanian, Estonian, and Latvian responses to Russian domination.

Which responses are you talking about? Granting the Russian language no official status, as it is the case in Latvia, despite it being the mother tongue of a third of the country's population?

quote:

Unfortunately for such "little" people if they happen to live over an oil-well or a gold-mine or even if they live on good agricultural land near an avaricious neighbour seeking expansion they will not only lose their language and culture but also their land, their homes, and even their lives.

Unfortunately, the label of "avaricious neighbour seeking expansion" can be put on almost any country. Lithuania once extended far east and south, exactly the "avaricious neighbour" you describe, into the lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs of all flavours.

I'm not a Russian nationalist or even patriot, or revisionist or whatever. I myself am highly critical of Russia's past and present. But what I dislike is any form of demonisation of Russia / the USSR / Tsarist Russia. It is / was as evil, avaricious, etc. as any other empire.

I am also very sceptical of nationalism. It is just another highly dubious thing that is out there to divide people. I believe mankind has had enough of divisionism and it's high time it got on the road to unity. 'Le future est au métissage' mar a dúirt an té a dúirt ;)

Unity is good but not at the cost of the diversity and culture uniqueness. There are a lot of people out there that fully support the globalization of the world including the want for a single language and culture. Cultures and unique societies must be preserved. I'm not calling division good, but the globalization fanatics can not have their way.

A Jeaicín,
Yes, I did mean for it to be Cheryl as Gaeilge. I do not think the "T" spellings will work because the "Ch" is not pronounce like the "ch" in the english "chair". But the "s" spellings look about right. I translated my name a long time ago when I first started learning Irish and didn't know as much as I know now about the sounds the letters make in relation to other letters. I like "Seiril" better I think, though I do not think this site will let me change my username. Oh well. :) At least on emails and things I can use a closer spelling.

Agus seo é ....
http://gaelsceal.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1133:dipholaiti u-tuaisceart-eireann-nua-ag-glacadh-seilbhe-ar-an-ghaeilge&catid=11:tuairimi&Ite mid=298