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The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Archive through September 13, 2011 » Are Irish Speakers too puritanical? « Previous Next »

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Gaelscéal_nuachtán
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Username: Gaelscéal_nuachtán

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 11:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://gaelsceal.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1048:dairiously -na-bigi-chomh-piuratanach-sin&catid=11:tuairimi&Itemid=298

Daltaí may be interested in the above article by Alison Ní Dhorchaidhe - "Dáiríously, ná bígí chomh piúratánach sin!"

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 61
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 12:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As a Catholic, I have to say, I'd prefer to be accused of Jansenism rather than Puritanism.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11641
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

B'fhearr liom gan ceachtar a bheith á chuir i mo leith, fíor ná bréagach!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3972
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 04:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Ní hé sin le rá go scriosfar struchtúr na teanga, ach díreach na hathruithe teanga nádúrtha a ligean isteach.



Ní fríd chaint na bhfoghlaimeoirí a athrann teangaidh, ach fríd chaint na gcainteoirí dúchais. Is i gcaint na gcainteoirí dúchais a thig athraíocha nádúrtha. Ní i gcaint na bhfoghlaimeoirí. Má tá duifreacha eadar caint na bhfoghlaimeoirí agus caint na Gaeltachta, sin as siocair nár éirigh go fóill leis na foghlaimeoirí an teangaidh a mháistriú i gceart.

Ní fríd chaint na bhfoghlaimeoirí Spáinneacha nó Francacha a athras an Béarla, mar shompla. Na meancógaí a ghníos siad seo, ní éireochaidh siad ina rialacha...
Rud céarna leis a' Ghaeilg.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11642
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 07:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Fíor dhuit, ach de bharr síolteagasc abhus is deacair é sin a chuir ina luí ar dhaoine. Deacracht eile ná go bhfuil deighilt idir cainteoirí dúchais agus codanna den saol, reachtaíocht & rl ach go háirithe (agus na meáin cumarsáide go pointe áirithe freisin). Mar sin níltear ag saothrú na teanga go nádúrtha sna réimsí sin.

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Nach bhfuil lán-chead ag duine ar bith a chuid Gaeilge féin a scríobh? Cé a chuirfidh stop leat? Ní bheinnse ag iarraidh toirmeasc a chur le "rud céarna leis a' Ghaeilg" cé go scríobhfainn féin "mar an gcéanna leis an Ghaeilge." Bheinn chomh sásta "céarna" le "mar an gceanna leis an nGaolainn".

Thug Niall Ó Dónaill aghaidh ar an bhfadhb seo sa leabhar "Forbairt nna Gaeilge" agus is deas an rud go bhfuil pobal Gaeilge an Idirlín á plé i dtólamh. Bhainfeadh Myles na gCopaleen an-sult as an gceist seo. Cá bhfuil Mí-shásta na laethanta seo?

Ar ndóigh, sinne a tógadh leis an dá theanga agus nach mian linn bheith de shíor ag plé an mheáin seachas an teachtaireacht a chur in iúl tá rogha breá ar fáil dúinn, rogha a nglactar go forleathan leis: An Caighdeán Oifigiúil "nach gcuireann teir na toirmeasc ar cheartfhoirmeacha eile."

Ach nach cuma. Caithfimid go léir damhsa de réir an phort a chloisimid inár n-aigne féin.

Nach fearrde muid ar an téad seo ná sinn a bheith ag iarraidh fadhbanna an Bhéarla a réiteach: "it was me / it was I -- to who / to whom -- who did it / who done it -- I would have gone / I wudda went -- et cetera / eksetra :-)

Ach tugaimis aghaidh ar cheist eile: cé a bhainfidh inniu: foireann Lughaidh nó foireann Jeaicín?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3973
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Nach fearrde muid ar an téad seo ná sinn a bheith ag iarraidh fadhbanna an Bhéarla a réiteach: "it was me / it was I -- to who / to whom -- who did it / who done it -- I would have gone / I wudda went -- et cetera / eksetra :-)



Cén bhaint eadar sin agus ábhar na téide seo?
Bhí mise a' ráidht nár cheart glacadh le meancógaí na bhfoghlaimeoirí.
Tá tusa a' labhairt fá chanúintí, fá fhoirmeacha Béarla dhúchasaigh (ach nach bhfuil caighdeánach). So níl muid a' labhairt fán rud chéarna.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 152
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 07:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ní thuigim an piosa. My Irish is too basic to understand.

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Gaelscéal_nuachtán
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Username: Gaelscéal_nuachtán

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 07:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá fáilte roimh fhreagraí, píosaí nó litreacha agus is féidir trácht a fhágáil ar an suíomh.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

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Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 183
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Apologies, Faberm. I'll try and summarise.

In her article / blog Alison feels aggrieved that some people don't accept her use of Irish without nit-picking for faults. She probably writes Irish better than 95% of her age-group yet feels she does not receive recognition for her achievement. The unexpected criticism hurts and she tells such nit-pickers to "lay off" although not in those words. [I say "Good for you, Alison. Coinnigh ort!)

Why are Irish-speakers puritanical about trivial things.

Lughaidh points out that it is not "learners" who change a language but "native-speakers". Changes occur naturally by tacit agreement among native-speakers.

Aonghus points out that in addition to native-speaker usage of Irish there are also other registers such as those of legislators (Acts of the Dáil are written in legalise) and the media also use their own Irish terminology every day. [Jeaicín says: Big influence there! "Slán tamall" -- "Liom anois sa stiúidió tá ..." etc. Some broadcasters even avoid the common pitfall, "Sin a bhfuil uainn anocht, a éisteoirí! (Whaaat?)]

Jeaicín: My contribution suggested that users of the language will decide what is acceptable or not. As an example I pointed out that Lughaidh chooses to write in what he considers to be an authentic dialect of Irish. I say good luck to him. Who cares? Whatever floats your boat! If we can understand each other then it's OK. There is no one to prohibit anyone else using whatever Irish they like.

The great Irish writer, translator, lexicographer, and ardent native-speaker, Niall Ó Dónaill, expressed his views on the chaotic state of Irish grammar and spelling in his book "Forbairt na Gaeilge" which resulted in the Official Standard which includes the phrase "gan teir ná toirmeasc ar cheartfhoirmeacha eile" (without disapproval or prohibition of other correct forms).

Finally I expressed the view that we were discussing this issue in Irish and not similar questions causing concern in the other Irish language, English.

Lughaidh picked me up on some point and said that his view was that learner errors were unacceptable.

Finally while I love to read books such as "Na Rosa go Brách" or any of Máire's many books not to mention the delightful An LINN BUÍ from Déise Mumhan or Pádhraic Mháire Bhán from Acaill -- I regard An Caighdeán Oifigiúil as simply another dialect of Irish.

Drawing a distinction between "learners" and "native-speakers" in the case of Irish is not helpful. All native-speakers are bilingual. There are no monoglot speakers of Irish. (I'll be delighted to hear of a cluster still living in an isolated valley undiscovered, untouched by the education system and out of reach of Sky TV broadcasts.)

I suggest a far better distinction in the case of Irish would be between "learners" and "active users".

If the "users" write a poem and can't get it published they'll learn why. If they write a book and can't win a prize at the Oireachtas they'll be told why and to try again. If they attempt to translate from another language and translate badly they won't be paid. They'll learn.

If "learners" who are also "active users" try and speak Irish in any of the existing Irish-speaking districts - i.e. lots of "active users" with some enlightened mothers contstantly speaking Irish to their babies -- and if they can't make themselves understood they'll have to resort to English or else learn how the locals speak Irish - when they do speak Irish - which may be only occasionally.

Obviously if our "learner user" is holding out a big wad of euro notes our local "active user" will make a very special effort to understand, regardless of meancóga, communication will ensue, and euros will change hands.


We're all learners now. Let's give each other a chance, a bit of encouragement. That's why we read the FORUM on this site. The main threat to living Irish is not "meancóga na bhfoghlaimeoirí" but, shhh! "e n g l i s h". God bless na foghlaimeoirí. We need more of them.

The puritanicals? They'll always be with us. Let's respect them and try to understand their point of view. Hint! Hint! I'm one at heart.

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 42
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 12:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

No Irish speakers aren't purists, its only internet people that you get purists for every subject even gaming, sport etc.

(Message edited by The_lilywhites on August 29, 2011)

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 155
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 01:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Jeaicin:

Thanks so much. Sorry my Irish isn't good enough yet to understand. It'll come in time. The native Irish speakers I met weren't puritanical at all. They tried to understand me and respond to me in a way I would understand. However, I often had to say, "Níl bearla.....i nGaeilge, le do thoil". They're so accustomed to accomodating people by jumping into English. it was strange though that some learners who weren't much ahead of me would correct me when I used standard acceptable Donegal/Ulster terms (and WE WERE IN ULSTER!)....told me not to say "fosta...should be freisin", etc....I just ignored them and roared on blustering my way with mo chuid Gaeilge briste. I guess they're still curious as to what I was all about. (I've developed a pretty thick mental/emotional hide in my 55 years).

I appreciate the comments Aonghus made on my piosa beag. That sort of thing is very constructive. I asked for it and he helped me with courtesy and respect. At this point I'm anxious to have constructions, words, etc in the right order, context, etc. Spelling will come in time with usage. I don't need spelling corrections because they can be found in the dictionary, but it's the construction that is needed. Only fluent speakers or conversational folks can help with that sort of thing. Good speaking doesn't require good spelling.

One last thought: I suspicion that many of the "puritanicals" aren't that interested in others learning. They more enjoy the feeling of perhaps being superior with their domination of the language. (kind of a linguistic elitism group). Also, there's the chance that some of those "puritanicals" might not be able to have much of a conversation at all, but can analyze a written dialogue and battle in the written fray. My own goal is to be able to Skype you or others and say everything I've written here in good understandable acceptably pronounced Irish.

Until then,
Slán go foill,
Faber

(Message edited by faberm on August 29, 2011)

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 277
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 05:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I want to learn to speak Irish like a fluent native speaker - I guess that makes me a purist

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Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 184
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 05:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Naah! You're like me, a learner. And I'm like you in that I'd love to sound like a native speaker also. (Surely all native speakers are fluent?) Sadly despite my best efforts native speakers in a particular area always seem to think I'm from the next Gaeltacht down -- or up -- the coast. I can never seem to get it quite right. I always sound like me. I was told recently I sound like someone from Sliabh Luachra. Was that a compliment?

Anyway, Wee_Falory_Man, since you're here on Daltaí you're a "user." You may even be an "active user" and that's good. Seans go gcasfar ar a chéile i nganfhios muid. Mise ag ceapadh gur cainteoir dúchais tusa agus tusa ag ceapadh gur as Bleá Cliath mise.

Dála an scéil, cá bhfuair tú an smiley sin? Ní hionann mo cheannsa.

(Message edited by Jeaicín on August 29, 2011)

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 278
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 05:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ceart go leor, a chara!

I'm glad I've got all of those labels sorted out.

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Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 06:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Aha! Tuigim anois. Go raibh maith agat, Wee_falorie_man.

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The_lilywhites
Member
Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Haha yes I totally agree with you Jeacín, I speak Conamara Irish and I've been complemented from native speakers so far people in Carraroe have guessed that I sound like someone from Camus, Ros Muc, even Rath Chairn a year or two ago, and Doire Fhearta a townland a mile away from the main Carraroe village.... and the Aran islands.

I'd say its still a great complement. ;)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11653
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 04:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A great compliment certainly, and I suggest you complement it by wide reading & listening.

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 157
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Seo comhra an spraoi agus greannmhar a cloisteáil 's a fhéachaint Let's don't stoop to correcting each others' English or I might have to say that the last comment doesn't look much like a complete sentence and the syntax is a bit weird. (looks rather Irish). :) Should have read "It was certainly a great complement and I suggest that you complement it with wide reading and listening." Aonghus, I'll trade you any English perfection I might have for just a wee bit of Irish.....help me please!

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 158
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Jeaicín: If you're ready for others to carry it on how about giving me a 45 minute lesson each week via Skype to get me up to "bí a chaint" and I can pass it on to others. I'm going to teach a "Beginner's course" again beginning Oct 6th. I think I'll have about 10 students.

:) Faberm

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 159
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Seo comhra an spraoi agus greannmhar a cloisteáil 's a fhéachaint Let's don't stoop to correcting each others' English or I might have to say that the last comment doesn't look much like a complete sentence and the syntax is a bit weird. (looks rather Irish). :) Should have read "It was certainly a great compliment and I suggest that you complement it with wide reading and listening." Aonghus, I'll trade you any English perfection I might have for just a wee bit of Irish.....help me please!

(Message edited by faberm on August 30, 2011)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11661
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 - 09:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Giotaí beaga is túisce a cheartóidh mé, Faber, with my compliments

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Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 190
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Jeaicín: If you're ready for others to carry it on how about giving me a 45 minute lesson each week via Skype to get me up to "bí a chaint" and I can pass it on to others. I'm going to teach a "Beginner's course" again beginning Oct 6th. I think I'll have about 10 students.

:) Faberm



I would if I could, Faberm, but if you send me your e-mail I'll pass it on to someone who would be delighted to help you. You can contact me on jeaicin@eircom.net

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Hugo
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Username: Hugo

Post Number: 117
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Cé a bhainfidh inniu: foireann Lughaidh nó foireann Jeaicin?



A Jeaicin, beidh lá eile ag na Connollaigh...

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Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 191
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2011 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Shíl mé go mbeadh an lá leis na Connallaigh sa chéad leath, bleithigh mhóra a tógadh ar phréataí is scadáin, ach féach mar a tháinig lucht na sceallóg aniar aduaidh orthu. Truamhéileach.



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