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The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » County Clare language strength « Previous Next »

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 12:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Could anyone give me any information as to the strength of Gaeilge in County Clare? My ancestors are from that area and I noticed there were no official Gaeltacht regions. Any information on it would be helpful! Thanks

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 397
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The last native speakers of Clare Irish died just over ten years ago in the Doolin area.

There might, just might be a semi-native speaker or two around Carraig a' Chobhaltaigh.

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 03:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There is a book about the status of Irish in Clare in the 50s, and information on the dialect how they spoke it with grammar, prononciation etc luckly I have a copy.

Like Ggn said I read there were native speakers in Doolin in the 90s.

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 09:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

And what would that book be called, if I may ask?

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 173
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 01:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Am I right in thinking that the Irish in Inis Oírr has similarities to Clare Irish.

Doolin would've been much easier for the Inis Oírr islanders to come to the mainland before the pier at Ros a'Mhíl was build. The other two islands had more of a connection to the Connamara mainland.
Actually I think I have a vocabulary booklet somewhere...

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 05:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Bríd,

I understand that there were 3 main dialects spoken in Clare, but these have probably been influenced by migration and the Diocesan splits.

The most prevalent dialect was the Déise dialect down through Mid & East Clare down through Limerick and Tipp to the Déise.


The spread of the Déise dialect in that terrain was probably due to Brian Boru - it could have originated in Clare and spread towards the Déise and vice-versa ?

Inis Oirr was owned by the O'Brien Clan and had the Déise dialect.

Parts of North Clare bordering Galway had a Galway dialect, but not Connamara.

Out in Loop Head - there is a Kerry influence.

________

An online Gaeltacht an Chláir website should be set up to help revive the language in the County.

(Message edited by Clash on August 20, 2011)

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 58
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 06:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I don't know which book about Clare is being referred to above, but there is a two volume study on the Clare dialect by Nils Holmer.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 358
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 06:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There is a group around Loop Head trying to regain the Gaeltacht for that area about a year or so ago, consisting of around 30 or so people.

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 59
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Do they have a website?

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 03:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There was a discussion on this topic two years ago: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/38253.html?1233853726

Scríobh an tAthair Mac Clúin "Caint an Chláir" (dhá imleabhar)

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Monday, August 22, 2011 - 01:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Anyone have info on the gaeltacht talk that seamás mentioned? website? article? etc. thanks

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 399
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Neart Gaeilge ó Chontae an Chláir le cloisteáil anseo ...

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_rileanna.xml

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Awesome thanks... they're speaking the clare dialect?

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 06:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It is great to hear those old speakers of Clare Irish but sad to realise that they could find no one to speak Irish to. Even those who had children probably spoke English to them at first and were surprised later when their children couldn't understand them when they did start to speak Irish. Transitional bilingualism can wipe out Irish in a family in one or two generations.

We should always speak Irish to babies. Otherwise ... the English will get them and it will be too late when we realise that they can only speak English. If they don't hear Irish spoken they won't speak it. Even a little Irish spoken by a mother to her baby can sow a seed of love for the language that will last for life.

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Yes, thats the Clare dialect on some of the podcasts on that site.

I look for information on the Clare dialect as well since its the dialect my ancestors spoke. My grandmother was from a village called Quilty in Clare and according to the censuses of 1901 and 1911 a lot had Irish around them areas.

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 156
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am working steadiliy to be able to speak Irish to any grandchildren I might have. I live on a farm in a rural community so there is a good chance that I'll have pretty continual contact with grandkids. It's just a dream but I'm working on it.

Without a dream the people perish,
Faber

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 07:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The language must be spoken as a first language for it to survive. I aggree, the children must only hear Irish from early on. They can learn english later as they need it (though they shouldn't need it to begin with, in my own opinion.) In terms of revitilization efforts in Clare, anyone know of anything? I have heard talk of new gaeltachts being established eslwhere through the isle and other such things.

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Richard1965
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Username: Richard1965

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 12:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Sílim go bhfuil an fhadhb anseo a d'fhonn an ghaeilge a bheidh, arís eile, an teanga na hÉireann, ní mór na difríochtaí canúna a chur chun sosa. Tá, tá sé brónach a fheiceáil chanúint bás amach, áfach, más mian le duine dul chun cinn i an Ghaeilge a aisiriú le stádas láidir náisiúnta níor chóir iad a bheith buartha faoi chanúintí. An bhfuil tú realize cé mhéad canúintí a bhí sna Stáit Aontaithe roimh thionscnamh teilifíse agus raidió leis an chanúint neamh-réigiúnach de Mheiriceá? Níor chuir an teanga Meiriceánach a fuair bás amach. Tá muid in ann labhairt lenár canúintí réigiúnacha agus neamh-réigiúnach, a bhfuil an méid ad'fhoghlaim muid ar scoil. Beidh trí amach an Béarla agus an Ghaeilge a glacadh ach fiú má tá sé an CO mhaith liom a rá laistigh de canúintí ghlúin cúpla uair níos mó chun cinn. Mo sheantuismitheoirí labhair Meiriceánach difriúil ná mar is féidir liom inniu. Tá rud amháin maidir linn na hÉireann, tá muid ag daoine faoi cheannas tiubh agus atá againn ar an am atá caite ar bhealach is stubborn. Fiú má chiallaíonn sé ár n-aistriú. Mar a dúirt mé, dul ar aghaidh agus an CO glacadh go hiomlán agus a chur ar an Ghaeilge an teanga amháin a labhairt agus a mhúintear agus ar deireadh thiar beidh canúintí cinn ó sin. Tar éis an tsaoil labhraíonn aon duine de na canúintí Béarla Sean níos mó ach, nach bhfuil Béarla éag amach, tá sé ag fás air. Tabhair na hÉireann an deis chéanna, le do thoil!

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 01:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Excuse my english! My vocabulary is not nearly adequet to respond to your text... yet. I concede to your point. But still, my view is that it would be best if a national standard was created and used (I'm not sure whether TG4 uses Gaeltacht or Urban Irish), while not damning the local dialects.

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Richard1965
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Username: Richard1965

Post Number: 2
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Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 09:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Óseanacháin,

The whole point I am attempting to make is that by so doggedly holding onto the dialects is going to eventually kill the language...Or maybe if that be the case each dialect area should be empowered to install teachers of their own dialects into their own regional schools in order for their children to learn and absorb the dialect...However, the dialects aren't that different from each other or the CO...Here in the states we have for instance Maine wich some one from Louisiana will have difficulty understanding unless the Mainer use non-regional American...The word 'you' is pronounced differently and sometimes written differently throughout the US...Yaw, You, Youse, Ya, Ye, Yi...The same can be in Ireland where the children may learn the CO but maintain their own local variety...Although, even here it seems that dialects are going by the wayside and Southern American is not as strong as it was around 50 years ago...Even the Harlem, NY dialect is fading, in that I mean that in Harlem bacause of their financial isolation they developed their own way of talking to each other...It is all American with a lot of made up words to communicate everyday cultural ideas...There was a book (dictinary & grammar)put out in the '60s that taught the dialect, it was called 'The Black Jargon', I think...As everything else in the world, things change and either one moves ahead or is left behind...I have a passion for the Irish even though my people came here in 1751 from Cookstown, Tyrone, Ireland...I would hate to see it die out...That would be tragic...I knew a woman that worked for the USO on base in Philadelphia who's mother was a native Scots Gaelic speaker and she knew english as it was forced on her as a child, however, she would not allow english to be spoken in her house and it was in her terms not to have English spoken at her funeral either, only the Gaelic and only a Druidic Priest, I think it was, to hold any kind of religious ceremony, for she held to the old ways...

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 22
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 02:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I appreciate what you're saying. I completely agree with your idea of incuraging local teachers with their own dialect to teach. I also see that the dialects are falling away in America as more people from around the country speak more and more similarily to one another due to the media and national culture speaking standard american english. My point is to merely point out that the dialects have their own cultural uniqueness and weight. I think it would be nice if the dialects survived. But if only a national standard of Gaeilge survives I would be perfectly content with that. And the language won't die out. I refuse to allow that to occur... as do most of our bretheren still living in Erin. It's growth has been great in the last few decades thanks to the government (weird, right?), language support groups, econominically stable gaeltachts, and most importantly, I think, the explosion in the number of gaelscoileanna. No need to worry about it dying out. Although I do agree I would be absolutely devastated. That is amazing and inspiring, about that woman who held on to the old ways. There are many like that. This is in part why the language will return.

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 06:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

These points -- which are appropriate for a forum like this -- come up again and again. Sometimes they engender more heat than light.

I think some of the "heat" arises from misunderstandings. Words such as "learner" do not have the same meanings for us in Ireland as in other countries. For example, a "learner" of French or German in Britain may have spent three or four years learning some grammar and conversational French for specific occasions. Being able to ask for or give directions in a French town gives the impression that one is "fluent". In Ireland a "learner" of Irish may live near the Gaeltacht, may have spent thirteen years learning the language at school, may have an enthusiastic relative or friend who uses the language. "Nobody learns Irish at school!" says the cynic. Not so. A proportion of each year's cohort of students learn it very well. They should not all be judged by reference to those who fail.

There have always been two strands of objectives among those who study Irish.

Some study it in order to use it as a living language, enjoy its literature and culture and associate with others of similar inclination. They want to speak it to their children and hear it spoken back to them. They don't much care if "fosta" - "Th'anam ón diail" and "Is é an chaoi a bhfuil sé a'msa" occur in the same sentence. It is all Irish. Sorting out dialects is not of concern to them. If enough people speak the language the issue of dialects will sort itself out. (( We have to keep the broad and slender consonants however. Especially the Ceathrú Thaidhg ~ire ~ ):-)

Others approach the language with religious reverence and want only the authentic dialect of 100 years ago. The antiquarian approach is also valid provided the antiquarians do not disparage and discourage the present day speakers of the language.

Some of the best Gaeltacht speakers hate the thought of us learners using the language for our own purposes. Of course we don't know it as well as they. Can't they encourage rather than criticise however. Should we always apologise when speaking in their presence? I understand how they feel. I think I have similar feelings when I hear a foreign doctor speaking English strangely in a hospital in Ireland. That's just chauvinism in me.

Having Irish reduced to occasional symbolic usage is not my objective either although I am in favour of equal signage in public. I want to hear it learnt, used and discussed in homes. Whether one person speaks Irish well and another badly does not matter to me. If a critical mass of people are speaking the language in some form it will survive -- at least for as long as I live.

What of the Gaeltacht? Of course every effort should be made to encourage the women of the Gaeltacht to speak only Irish to their babies. Unfortunately they don't see many opportunities for all their children in their own locality so they are concerned to give their children another dialect "formal English" a language many of them do not know. They know the local Hiberno-English which is different.

As for that woman who held on to the old ways: I think the opposite would be better: learn the new ways and adapt the Irish language to suit. TG4 do it. Raidio na Gaeltachta. Even Daltaí. I am sure many of us have written more Irish here online than our predecessors ever wrote in their lives.

The message is: use it or lose it.

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 68
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 06:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I have to say, Jeaicín, while I agree with your post in general, I disagree with your favouring equal signage.

Personally, I would rather see towns with an originally Irish name, sign-posted in Irish only and towns which were founded with English names thus named.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 07:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I most certainly agree with Irish only signage when the placename is live: Ros Cré should be Ros Cré and not "Roscrea". "Ceathú Thaidhg" shhould not be "Carrateige".

In County Dublin you have a town with a fine Irish name, Dún Laoghaire, written and spelled correctly and yet it is put in smaller lower case italic lettering below the spot where "the real English name" might go. Its ENGLISH neighbour BLACKROCK gets the full treatment of BOLD CAPITALS for the "English Name" and lower case italics for the Irish "An Charraig Dhubh".

Publishers of books in English require that words in "a foreign language" be written in italics. Why is Irish regarded as "foreign" on our own roadsigns?

Since North and South there are many people who are happy with placenames like "dingle" and "carrateigue" I am in favour of giving them comfort. Let us reverse the precedence given to the languages on the present roadsigns: put AN CHARRAIG DHUBH in block capitals and put Blackrock in italics. You would soon hear protests from those enamoured of "the English form" and to keep them happy we could give each form identical status with the Irish first. In the case of DÚN LAOGHAIRE and other towns where the Irish version only is used -- or comes to be used -- only one form need be used and that in BLOCK CAPITALS

Those italics on the roadsigns may appear no more than a trivial issue but they annoy me and say to me that my language has lesser status than the dominant language. When Ireland recovers its confidence and gives real support to the Irish language we may hope that that will be put right eventually.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11724
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 08:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is fearr liom féin moladh CnaG: Idirdhealú le dath seachas le cló nó méid.

https://cnag.ie/index.php?page=feachtais&campaign_id=1

Is maith liom na fógraí nua turasóireachta i mBÁC, mar shampla. Cé nach dóigh liom go bhfuil an liath chomh maith sin.

Pictiúir leis an giota seo:
http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2011/03/manglam-ardchathrach.html

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dún Laoghaire - is exceptional in the Galltacht. The only town that I know of that is in Irish but everybody in the area says Dun leary.

Dingle - any town that is in the Gaeltacht and refuses to have their name in Irish officially should be kicked out of the Gaeltacht immediately. They can keep their "Dingle" in the Galltacht.
Here in An Cheathrú Rua we often use the English translation "Carraroe" (I do myself when I'm speaking English) but we would never ever have a campaign to change it to English officially or to keep it on signposts. We would be mortified with embarrassment if locals wanted that.

Learners in the Gaeltacht - Learners are welcome in the Gaeltacht. Most people do their best to be friendly and helpful. And sometimes to be helpful we will speak English to the learner as we are all bi-lingual here.

It is impossible to raise a child in the Gaeltacht today without English. You could only do that if you lived in isolation with no Tv/radio/computer and no friends for your child. When Gaeltacht people learn English they will usually learn proper standard English. We are not raised with the slang and idioms used in the Galltacht (fortunately).

mixing dialects - we all understand that learners will mix dialects. But as they get more fluent it is preferable to choose a dialect and stick to that.
You are unlikely to find an English learner mixing dialects. Who speaks with a New York accent and then a Texan accent.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11725
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Dún Laoghaire - is exceptional in the Galltacht. The only town that I know of that is in Irish but everybody in the area says Dun leary.



Fíor dhuit. Ach níl ach dornán baile a d'athraigh sna 20í pé scéal é: Cobh (Queenstown) Dún Laoghaire (Kingstown) Port Laoise (Maryborough) - tá cinn eile ann ach ní cuimhin liom iad.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11726
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá ceist Daingean gan Chúis casta. Baile seirbhíse do fíor Ghaeltacht Iarthar Dhuibhneach. Buile trom a bheadh ann é thógáil as an nGaeltacht; bheadh sé níos deacra ag pobal na Gaeltachta seirbhís i nGaeilge a fháil (Otharlann, Comhairle Contae, Gardaí, & rl)

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Belmullet is another place now where they want it to be on signage they even wrote RIP on the Gaeltacht sign, same in Claregalway. The boundries are an absolute joke, the only proper Gaeltacht areas are Galway, Kerry and Donegal I know I will probably be attacked by saying that but its true.

If Dingle got removed from the Gaeltacht it will affect other areas before it as well.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11727
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Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Bhí caint ar stádas ar leith do Bhailte Seirbhíse Gaeltachta mar chuid den Straitéis 20 Bl. Ba mhaith an rud sin, níos soiléire agus úsáid níos cruinne acmhainní teoranta.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11728
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 10:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Chomh maith leis seo, tabharfar stádas reachtúil faoin mBille do Bhailte Seirbhíse Gaeltachta — bailte atá taobh istigh nó taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, mar atá sí aitheanta faoi láthair, ina mbeidh raon leathan seirbhísí trí Ghaeilge ar fáil do cheantair Ghaeltachta atá suite cóngarach do na Bailte Seirbhíse Gaeltachta seo.



http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/07/21/00051.asp

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 10:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I also think that the Irish name should be in Bold and the English in italics. It is unfortunate that English is so imbedded in Irish society. Irish should politically and economically be used as a first language. I mean this in that Politicians should first give a speech in Irish, then AFTER this give the same speech in English. I do realize there was some sort off legislation that required the government to release both English and Irish versions of legislation, however, I think that Irish should be treated as more important in the release of information and legislation and speeches made by politicians. In the various counties, the use of Irish should be strongly encouraged in business. For example perhaps giving some sort of tax benefits to those businesses that use Irish in the workspace, or even attempt to use Irish with the customers. (I'm not totally familiar with Irish legislation, so sorry if something similar to this is already occurring.) In terms of television, perhaps commercials of businesses could be encouraged to be in Gaeilge in some way.... the list goes on and on.

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 09:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

They should be equal but in different colour, Irish in italics on the signposts is just an insult to be honest. Even in the Gaeltacht where its in Irish only, is still in italics.......

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