mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Archive through September 13, 2011 » Noun cases? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dearthair_beag
Member
Username: Dearthair_beag

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Please forgive me for this being such a newbie question, but I am getting confused about the purpose and usage of different word forms in Gaeilge. What, exactly, does it mean when one speaks of nominative, genitive, vocative and dative?

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 06:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Welcome, a dheartháir bhig!

That "a dheartháir bhig!" is an example of the "vocative" - the form used when you are calling or addressing someone: deartháir beag changes to "a dheartháir bhig".

The genitive indicates "possession" or "of" in English: so "an bád" (the boat) changes like this "seol an bháid" (the sail of the boat). There are some words that are always followed by the genitive "trasna" for example: so an bóthar (the road) becomes "trasna an bhóthair" (across the road). Speakers of Irish nowadays are casual about the genitive. There are many many occasions where it need not be used even though a beginner might think it should.

The nominitive is the original basic form of the noun, the form you'll see as a headword in the dictionary. It is used when the noun is the subject or object of a verb.

The dative is (almost always) the same as the nominitive except that it follows the simple prepositions and some of them cause lenition or with the article "an" cause eclipsis or lenition. One preposition causes eclipsis.

There is another aspect of nouns that you should study first: the difference between masculine and feminine or firinscneach and baininscneach.

Mar a deirim tá fáilte romhat.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Remember
Member
Username: Remember

Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 08:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Cases are something you'll find in a lot of languages, I find it's best to take an example.


The dog bit the man.

Here, "dog" is in the nominative, because it's the dog that is acting, it's biting.

"man" is in the accusative, because it's the man who is being bitten,.


The man bit the dog.

Now, it's the other way around. The "man" is doing the biting, so the man is in the nominative. The "dog" is in the accusative, because it's suffering the action, it's being bitten.



In English, you usually have a sentence in this order:

NominativeNoun ____ Verb _____ AccusativeNoun

I _____________ eat________ chips
Jake____________ loves________ Judy
You____________ sent________ the letter
The dog___________ bit_________ the man


but other languages, like German, can mix up the order order by marking the noun somehow. Like if in English, you put a capital "N" and "A" before every noun, you could always tell who did what.

So you could scramble the words like this :

The (A)man bit the (N)dog,
The (A)man, the (N)dog bit

but still know that it's the dog who bit the man, because you would be able to see how to unscramble the word order to make it

Nominative Verb Accusative

The (N)dog bit (A)the man

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Remember
Member
Username: Remember

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 09:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Now, if you added another noun to that, like "leg". You'd want to know what it is doing. Is it the man's leg or the dog's leg or is " The dog and the leg bit the man" or "The dog bit the man and the leg"

That question is answered by using the genitive form, like in English using apostrophe+s ('s) shows ownership. "The man's leg" = the leg of the man. Except that in other languages which mark the genitive, it wouldn't be "man's leg" but "man 'sleg"

That's the concept, but obviously the actual rules are done differently in Irish.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dearthair_beag
Member
Username: Dearthair_beag

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 11:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go raibh maith agaibh.

This has all been very helpful. The few speakers I've talked to locally here seem to explain things as "they just are" or, "it just sounds right a certain way". I understand so much better now.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sériál
Member
Username: Sériál

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2011 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I agree with all before. I just wanted to put in that the "accusative" is the same as the "direct object" in grammar. This might help where the term "accusative" is not used and where "direct object" is more used.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3969
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2011 - 12:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Btw we don't need to use the word "accusative" when talking about modern Irish, since there's no accusative case anymore. The direct objects have the same form as the subjects. You only know they are direct objects from their place in the sentence, and from the meaning (in some cases the word-order doesn't help).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sériál
Member
Username: Sériál

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2011 - 04:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is fíor é sin, a Lughaidh. :) Go raibh maith agat.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge