mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Archive through July 28, 2011 » Scots Gaelic? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnaill_og
Member
Username: Domhnaill_og

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2011 - 11:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I was wondering about the mutual intelligibility of Irish and Scots Gaelic. I've been trying to find out exactly how close the two languages are, and have had widely varying results. Ive read things ranging from a claim that they are 95% the same language to that they are nearly completely mutually incomprehensible. The main reason being that my grandmother, a native speaker of Irish, once told me that the differences are political more than anything and that Scots Gaelic is merely a dialect of the same language (Im assuming she learned written Irish pre-1948 then).
The problem is that shes been dead for about a decade. She was from north Connemara (Renvyle), an area that is no longer even part of the Gaeltacht. My dad grew up in boston and he took a few trips to Ireland, but his irish is just the bare bones cupla focal. He says that once he remembers visiting Islay with his parents and his mom chatting away as gaelige with a few people there.
My personal knowledge of Irish is pretty limited (I know twice as much French and German as I do Irish, shamefully), but this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwVCrgvvHeE makes me wonder. The girl in the video is speaking pretty basic stuff, but I can understand a lot of it, and it just sounds to me like airy (lots more "h" sounds) Ulster irish. So now Im asking the opinion of people with a stronger understanding of Irish, to get a (hopefully somewhat) accurate idea of how close these two languages are. Are these languages mutually intelligible?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Madadhruadh
Member
Username: Madadhruadh

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 01:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Before Independence, Scottish Gaelic and Ulster Irish were basically the same language. There are people in my conversation group who had grandparents in Donegal who married Highlanders and had no communication problems.

A half-century of standardised education has brought Ulster Irish closer to Munster and Connaught, but there's still a lot in common.

Nowadays, perhaps not enough for an Irish speaker to immediately understand anything more than extremely basic Gaelic, but it certainly makes learning the other language a snap.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11583
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 03:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I find that I can read Scots Gaelic with some difficulty; but I'd have a lot of trouble following a speaker.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dubhthach
Member
Username: Dubhthach

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2010
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 07:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

One has to remember that scots Gàidhlig has also undergone standardisation over the last 50years as well. From what I've read in general it's more centered on the dialects of the islands which were more divergent from Irish. The southern dialects were closer to "North-East Ulster" are basically either extinct or moribund.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mikel
Member
Username: Mikel

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 07:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A Gaelic-speaking friend told me that there has been a change in the dialect used as a standard.

A few generations ago continental varieties were used. As Gaelic has disappeared from these traditional territories, the attention has been fixed in the dialects of the Outer Hebrides.

It seems that the islands have a strong influence of the Norwegian language, especially in pronunciation.

I do not know if it's true, but it explains the cases that have been previously explained.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 732
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 03:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I would say that the dialects of Irish and Scots Gaelic are on the dialectal spectrum of one and the same language. The spectrum has become eroded and piecemeal, however, with the connecting pieces in the middle gone. Both languages have been standardized in different ways which has widened the gap.

I have no doubt that an intelligent native speaker of either language could adapt very quickly to the other.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 03:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I visited the Hebrides / Inse Gall and Skye / An tEilean Scitheanach (?) quite a few times. I have also read many of the books and periodicals. I subscribed to GAIRM for the last 20 years of its publication and miss it now!

If you know Irish well you will have no difficulty reading an Ghaidhlig.

Speaking it may be more difficult. The two languages are so close that an Irish-speaker feels like correcting grammar and pronunciation in the Gaidhlig-speaker's language and it is only possible to resist that temptation for so long before you both switch to English.

I suppose there's only one way to learn it. Take lodgings in Floddigary, Barra, or na Hearraidh (??) and stay put for three months. Bring a notebook and recorder and don't forget Máirtín Ó Cadhain's charge -- outlined hilariously in Cré na Cille - "pionta ar an bpointe". Be generous and sociable. You'll forget your Irish and English and be able to show off here with words such as pailteas Gaidhlige, bodach, ag tighean dachaidh, ag bruidhean ceart nó cearr, mar a b'abhaist, chan eil agam ach an Ghaidhlig Eirionnach, tha mi sgith etc. (I don't know where the accents go. I thought I knew more :-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1128
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 01:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is díol speise go raibh mé ag amharc ar leabhar de Sheán Connery, Being a Scot, agus ní raibh Gàidhlige luaite ach uair maidir lena sheantuismitheoirí ar thaobh na máthar. Shílfí go luafadh sé níos mó í.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3956
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 06:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ni maith liom é nuair a usaidtear "Gàidhlig" i lar abairte i nGaeilg. Nil moran loighice bainteach leis sin. Is é "Gaeilg na hAlba" ainm Gaeilge na teangtha sin. Chan usaideann Gaeil na hAlban "Gaeilge" nuair a bios siad ag tracht ar theangaidh na tire eile, deireann siad "Gàidhlig na h-Eireann". I nGaeilg, ma usaideann muid achan uair an t-ainm a usaidean cainteoiri na teangtha féin, ni bhionn deireadh ar bith leis agus cha dtuigtear a chéile : an labhrann tu suomi? Labhraim brezhoneg. Ta Deutsch ag mo chara. Nil moran русский язык agam. An maith leat English? Is fearr liom runa simi.
Nil sé dairire, ta ainm ag na teangthacha sin uilig i nGaeilg. Chreidfea go n-usaideann cupla duine "Gàidhlig" srl le mortas a dhéanamh siocair go bhfuil's acu cad é an t-ainm ata ar Ghaeilg na hAlban i nGaeilg na hAlban.

Agus ina theannta sin, nil an fhoirm "Gàidhlige" le failt i nGaeilg na hAlban, usaideann siad "Gàidhlig" ins an tuiseal ainmneach agus ins an tuiseal ghinideach. Ma thoiseann tu a dhiochlaonadh focla Albanacha de réir rialacha Ghaeilg na hEireann, cad é a dhéanfas tu le focal Bascach no le focal Breatnach? :-) (ta mé ag léamh leabhar Cymraeige? lol)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1129
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 08:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ní bhainim úsáid as an fhocal de ghnáth. Hmm ... níor smaoinigh mé air i ndáiríre nuair a scríobh mé, mar sin dó, aontaím leat den chuid is mó. Ná héirigh tógtha, a bhráthair.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3957
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 09:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Chan éirim togtha, na biodh eagla ort :)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Fanaigí go fóill, a chairde. Tuigim a bhfuil á rá ag Lughaidh ach ní aontaím ar fad leis. Is cinnte go bhfuil ciall lena bhfuil ráite aige ach tá cúinge agus simplíocht ag baint leis chomh maith.

Muna bhfuil cead againn "an Ghaidhlig" a rá sa Ghaeilge cad chuige (tuige) a bhfuil cead ag daoine "an Ghaolainn" a rá -- agus iad mórtasach as.

Iad siúd a úsáideann teanga ó lá go lá a chinneann cad iad na focail a úsáidfear. Níl riail ann. Níl údarás ann. An critéar ná an chumarsáid agus an mhinicíocht. Is í an chumarsáid a chintíonn cad iad na focail a úsáidfear. Má airíonn cainteoirí na Gaeilge gur fiú dóibh an Ghaidhlig agus an Ghaeilge a chur in aon abairt amháin cé abróidh nach bhfuil an cead agus an ceart sin acu.

Ba thúisce labhairt na teanga ná foclóirí agus graiméir. Tá an tosaíocht sin ann i gcónaí. Beidh na foclóirithe, na gramadóirí, agus lucht ár gcáinte ag sodar inár ndiaidh agus iad ag iarraidh teacht suas le lucht labhartha na teanga d'fhonn smacht a chur ar an bhfás fiain is teanga ann. Ní éireoidh leo.

Mar a dúirt cainteoir de chuid Gaeilge na hAlban uair: "Ceart nó cearr, bí ag bruidhean."

Is le dea-mhéin a deirim an méid sin thuas. Nílimse "tógtha" - "corraithe" - ná "bocaithe" ach oiread. Táim ag ceapadh gur fánach an obair í treoir a chur i bhfeidhm ar lucht labhartha / scríofa teanga... An amhlaidh go bhfuil marcanna le gnóthú againn?

Is fiú an pointe a lua ach is iomaí úsáid a bhaintear as focail - chun registers, nuances, connotations, srl a chur in iúl. Is míorúilteach an gléas í teanga. Is féidir breathnú siar cinnte ach is doiligh breathnú ar a dtarloidh amach anseo. Cá bhfios.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sieirál
Member
Username: Sieirál

Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2011 - 09:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

My only experience with having the two languages compared is when I left a comment one time as Gaeilge on the Myspace page of a Scottish rock band. I completely forgot for the moment that they spoke Gaidhlig and not Gaeilge. But I was pleasantly suprised that they responded in Gaidhlig to me. They said that they could figure out with it little dictionary help the gist of what I was saying...it helped that this was quite a bit ago so I was only writing in very basic Gaeilge. And I figured out their responce with a few dictionary look-ups myself.

So all in all I think its very similar, but spellings and some fundamental words may be different. I certainly think that learning one is good preparation for learning the other if you wanted to dispite the differences.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11588
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2011 - 03:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There are also lots of false friends:

e.g. 'cuan' - harbour in Ireland, the sea in Scotland.


Global Glossary (another MBM project) will let you compare some words in both

http://www.globalglossary.org/Search.aspx?Text=asal&SrcLang=gd&TrgLang=ga

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 733
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2011 - 03:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Nach mór an náire dúinn gan a bheith in acmhainn an claí measartha íseal a shárú atá idir an dá leagan den teanga chéanna! Ní nach ionadh go bhfuil na Gaeil ag maireachtáil ar imeall thiar do-áitirthe na hEorpa. ;-)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3958
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 07:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Muna bhfuil cead againn "an Ghaidhlig" a rá sa Ghaeilge cad chuige (tuige) a bhfuil cead ag daoine "an Ghaolainn" a rá -- agus iad mórtasach as.



Is í "an Ghaelainn" ainm na teangtha i nGaeilg na Mumhan. Deireann na Muimhnigh "an Ghaelainn" (nó "an Ghaeilinn" srl) in áit "an Ghaeilg" mar muidinne.
B'fhéidir gur mhaith leat "Gàidhlig" a dh'úsáid i nGaeilg fosta siocair go gcreideann tú nach bhfuil i nGaeilg na hAlban ach canúint do Ghaeilg na hÉireann? Bhail, ní canúint Éireannach í níos mó, le fada.

quote:

Iad siúd a úsáideann teanga ó lá go lá a chinneann cad iad na focail a úsáidfear. Níl riail ann. Níl údarás ann. An critéar ná an chumarsáid agus an mhinicíocht. Is í an chumarsáid a chintíonn cad iad na focail a úsáidfear. Má airíonn cainteoirí na Gaeilge gur fiú dóibh an Ghaidhlig agus an Ghaeilge a chur in aon abairt amháin cé abróidh nach bhfuil an cead agus an ceart sin acu.



Théid focal isteach i dteangaidh nuair a ghlacas na cainteoirí dúchais leis, mar fhocal ceart ins a' teangaidh. An nglacann a' chuid is mó do na cainteoirí dúchais leis? An úsáideann a' chuid is mó acu leis? Níl mé cinnte. Ní dóigh liom gur minic a labhras pobal na Gaeltachta fá theangaidh na hAlban ná go bhfuil's acu cad é an t-ainm a bheireann an teangaidh sin orthaí féin. (Agus tá fuaimniú an fhocail "Gàidhlig" róchosúil le cionn an fhocail "Gaeilg" ins a' tuaisceart, bheadh fadhbannaí tuigbheála leis).
Déarfainn féin nach bhfuil ins an "nós" sin ("Gàidhlig" a dh'úsáid i lár abairte i nGaeilg) ach nós úr a rinn na foghlaimeoirí le mórtas a dhéanamh as focal Albanach a bheith acu, nó rud inteacht mar sin...

quote:

Ba thúisce labhairt na teanga ná foclóirí agus graiméir. Tá an tosaíocht sin ann i gcónaí. Beidh na foclóirithe, na gramadóirí, agus lucht ár gcáinte ag sodar inár ndiaidh agus iad ag iarraidh teacht suas le lucht labhartha na teanga d'fhonn smacht a chur ar an bhfás fiain is teanga ann. Ní éireoidh leo.



Ach an bhfuil teangthacha eile ann, a fhorbras ó chaint na bhfoghlaimeoirí amháin? (Ach amháin le teangthacha nach bhfuil cainteoir dúchais ar bith fágtha acu!)
Mar shompla, má chruthann Francach inteacht focal úr seafóideach i mBéarla (rud a tharlaigh cheana féin), an síleann tú gur ceart é a chur ins na foclóirí Béarla agus glacadh leis mar "fhocal ceart Béarla"? Ní dóigh liom go dtarlóchadh sé. Go dtí seo char ghlac na Béarlóirí dúchais le focla mar sin, go bhfios domh. Cad chuighe a ndéanfadh na Gaeilgeoirí a leithéid, mar sin?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ghlac na Béarlóirí le lear mór focal iasachta ó chuile chineál teanga, canúint, patois, agus gnúsacht. Is cuma leo faoin bhfoinse ach an focal a bheith fóirsteanach dá gcás.

Ní maith liom an síor-bhéim ar fhoghlaimeoirí. Is geall le focal tarcaisniúil an focal "foghlaimeoir" sa chás sin. Cheapfá go raibh cur amach diamhair éigin ag an té a úsáideann an focal ar aigne an chainteoir dúchais. Rud nach bhfuil thar mar atá agamsa agus agatsa, a léitheoir. Tá daoine ann a déarfadh nach bhfuil ag labhairt na Gaeilge faoi láthair ach "foghlaimeoirí."

Is dóigh liom go mbaineann a lán d'fhoghlaimeoirí na Gaeilge sár-líofacht amach. Nílim á rá gur fearr iad ná cainteoirí dúchais - ná baol air - ach bheadh a lán díobh ionchurthe le cainteoir dúchais. Ag smaoineamh atáim ar Alan Dukes, Noel Dorr, Mícheál O Muircheartaigh, Pat Cox, gan trácht ar na mílte a chualathas ag labhairt na Gaeilge ar NUACHT TG4 le blianta fada anuas. Cainteoirí breátha Gaeilge.

Ach cá mbeidh na cainteoirí dúchais i gceann caoga bliain? Deirtear gur Béarla teanga an chlóis i scoileanna na Gaeltachta faoi láthair, nó na scoileanna móra ach go háirithe. Cead cainte ag leanaí. Léireoidh siad an fhírinne.

Nuair a bheidh deireadh tagtha le nós na Gaeilge a labhairt cois teallaigh an mbeidh muide, "foghlaimeoirí" ag saothrú linn?

Beidh. Cuid againn ar fheabhas, cuid againn measartha, cuid eile lag, cuid eile ag cur i gcéill ach muid uilig i bhfábhar na teangan. Lasmuigh den phobal sin beidh an pobal eile: iad siúd gur fuath leo an Ghaeilge agus nach labhródh riamh í. "Cainteoirí dúchais Gaeilge" ina measc.
Lucht leanta Dhónaill Uí Chonaill a dúirt "I could witness without a sigh the death of the Irish language." Bíodh acu. Níor tharla fós.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Liam_mac_g
Member
Username: Liam_mac_g

Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 09:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I'm just after returning from south Uist, having spent a week their amongst the gaelic speaking community. I was in the company of a piper who spoke only gaelic to me. He had a knowledge of Irish, and so he sometimes used irish words if I got stuck. I found I could understand a large amount of what was being said to me.

I agree that the ulster irish connection is apparant in the language. I noticed that words are used in the language which might be found in irish, but in a different dialect, for example "Chífidh mé" meant I'll see. Also, words were often the same as irish if you changed the pronounciation of the vowels in the word.

Overall, I was astonished by the similarities between the languages. I would consider them sister lanuages, twin sisters that is.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Obuadhaigh
Member
Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 53
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 01:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

That's it: twin sisters who grew up in different homes :)

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3962
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

noticed that words are used in the language which might be found in irish, but in a different dialect, for example "Chífidh mé"



Chì mi in Gaelic, but tchífidh mé (with a t at the beginning) in Ulster Irish. Some write chífidh but the t is pronounced anyway.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 06:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Ní dóigh liom gur minic a labhras pobal na Gaeltachta fá theangaidh na hAlban ná go bhfuil's acu cad é an t-ainm a bheireann an teangaidh sin orthaí féin.



Labhair mé le hiascairí sa Ghaeltacht a raibh an-chur amach acu ar Ghaeilge na hAlban. Níl a fhios agam cé chomh líofa is a bhí siad ach théidis ar ancaire in Inse Gall le linn stoirme "go tric" agus d'ólaidis piontaí sna bailte beaga ar nós Castlebay, Lochmaddy, Lochboisdale, agus Stornaway. Bhíos féin in gach ceann de na bailte sin agus chuala mé daoine ag caint ina dteanga féin. B'shin fiche bliain ó shin. Chan fheil a fhios agam dé a thachair san idirlinn.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge