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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 221 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:35 am: | |
I recently came upon this phrase,being used to describe kids in Gaelscoileanna who have 'fluent bad Irish.I can empathise with them;like many older people I have a fair bit of excruciatingly bad French. But how does this phrase differ from say 'béarlachas'? Is it worse or could the acquisition of 'lofa' be a jumping off point for good Irish.Anyone got a few examples,we were discussing it at our cómhrá but the only one we could come up with was - I think - 'bhí an tine ag dul amach'. |
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1531 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 08:03 am: | |
I think "lofa" is being used to describe people who a) speak Irish with English pronunciation, b) ignore grammar rules that are alien to English (initial mutations, gender, proper plurals), and/or c) employ "béarlacas" or "calques" Béarlacas is making Gaeilge statements by putting Irish words on straight-up english constructions. |
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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 222 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 12:36 pm: | |
You can't do much about English pronunciation - I assume you mean Dublin accent - at first anyhow. The way English is spoke hereabouts,with Irish word order etc - is called re-lexification.Example: my sister is living in America with twenty years.Not 'has been living is US for....' Is 'lofa líofa' not the same thing in reverse? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3946 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 02:37 pm: | |
Antaine > And saying "Béarlacas" instead of "Béarlachas" *is* a Béarlachas too ;-) (just kidding) Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Iolann_fionn
Member Username: Iolann_fionn
Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:31 pm: | |
Níor mhiste spléachadh a thabhairt air seo - iontach greannmhar ar fad! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErJ3U7ZVOeA |
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1532 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 09:42 pm: | |
Macdara -> not a Dublin accent, I mean actually applying english pronunciation to the Irish letters. Just for the record, I'm not hard on the kiddies in the gaelscoileanna, but I know of others who are no end of harsh. I actually see cause for great hope in the kids who can carry on a playground conversation without being forced to do it...regardless of the modifications they make to the language at 12 years of age... |
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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 223 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 04:49 am: | |
Antaine - sometimes,listening to R na G , I am distracted by a strong Dublin or Belfast intonation.Now this is a bit unfair of me,as I'd have no problem understanding them i mBéarla. Back on relexification;I have started to notice other things in the English of Cork,like the all pervasive use of the conditional. 'My mother would have been very devout' 'It would have been a quite a large family' etc.In my time in England I never heard these constructions used.Is 'lofa' also a way of avoiding the modh coinníollach? It's the one thing that kids panic about before the Oral test.I believe - no proof whatsoever!- teachers also avoid it.Speakers of Hiberno English should find learning Irish a lot easier,they will be using the same word order a lot of the time anyway.But city kids in particular,do not use Hiberno English and are unconsciously trying to 'relexify' Irish.Well thats me theory anyhow. PS any other examples of 'lofa' usage gratefully accepted - I want to listen out for it now. |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1526 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 05:11 am: | |
It works both ways - "It does be cold here in the winter" (ó: bíonn sé) "two chip" (le cloisteáil in Ulaidh, ó : dhá sceallóg) etc I have taught in gaelscoileanna. The kids are a credit to the language and they are the last people to realise the good they do to their culture. When I worked in a coláiste samhraidh last time round I was asked by a 15 year old "An bhfuil mé pasta?" What she meant was "are we having pasta?" A child half her age in a gaelscoil wouldn't make that mistake. Those who are "no end of harsh" should wise up to themselves. Of course, it's easy for them to preach from their high-chair of saibhreas - is cuma le fear na mbróg cá gcuireann sé a chos. Ach, is iad atá ar strae - mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí. Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste. A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11526 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 07:30 am: | |
quote:Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste Is fearr fós Gaeilge chliste! Tá an ceart agat maidir leis an óige a mholadh. Ach uaireanta baintear feidhm as an mana thuas chun cloí le Gaeilge a chodail amuigh seachas feabhas a chuir air. Tá bóthar le treabhadh idir scaoileadh le gach botún agus gach botún a cheartú go borb. Agus ní mór taithí an foghlaimeora a chuir san áireamh freisin. |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1527 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:06 am: | |
ó mo thaithí, déantar an abairt sin a scríobh ar an gcaoi sin (gan séimhiú) d'aon ghnó. Léiríonn sé bunbhrí na habairte .i. Is fearr go bhfuil mé ag caint/scríobh trí mheán na Gaeilge - is cuma faoi séimhiú. Tá an ceart ar fad agat agus is deacair líne a tharraingt idir rudaí a cheartú/gan iad a cheartú. Is é an t-aon chonclúid atá agam, má dhéanann tú botú(i)n a cheartú déan é ar bun dearfach. Mar shampla - A Aonghuis a chara, tá séimhiú in easnamh i d'abairt deiridh ansin, meas tú cén áit? (Message edited by Domhnall on June 03, 2011) A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11527 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:17 am: | |
Taithí an fhoghlaimeora. Cé gur duine séimh mé, is minic séimhiú ar lár i mo chuid Gaeilge scríofa. Drochnós an Ghaeilgeora Galltachta nach bhfuil staidéir cheart déanta ar an nGaeilge aige. Monuar. |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1528 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:30 am: | |
Duine séimh - fíormhaith! Bain orm an ceann sin a úsáid i gcúrsaí gramadaí amach anseo :) A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river |
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