mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Archive through June 03, 2011 » Lofa líofa « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 221
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I recently came upon this phrase,being used to describe kids in Gaelscoileanna who have 'fluent bad Irish.I can empathise with them;like many older people I have a fair bit of excruciatingly bad French.

But how does this phrase differ from say 'béarlachas'? Is it worse or could the acquisition of 'lofa' be a jumping off point for good Irish.Anyone got a few examples,we were discussing it at our cómhrá but the only one we could come up with was - I think - 'bhí an tine ag dul amach'.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1531
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 08:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I think "lofa" is being used to describe people who a) speak Irish with English pronunciation, b) ignore grammar rules that are alien to English (initial mutations, gender, proper plurals), and/or c) employ "béarlacas" or "calques"

Béarlacas is making Gaeilge statements by putting Irish words on straight-up english constructions.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 222
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 12:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

You can't do much about English pronunciation - I assume you mean Dublin accent - at first anyhow.

The way English is spoke hereabouts,with Irish word order etc - is called re-lexification.Example: my sister is living in America with twenty years.Not 'has been living is US for....'

Is 'lofa líofa' not the same thing in reverse?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3946
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 02:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Antaine > And saying "Béarlacas" instead of "Béarlachas" *is* a Béarlachas too ;-) (just kidding)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Iolann_fionn
Member
Username: Iolann_fionn

Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Níor mhiste spléachadh a thabhairt air seo - iontach greannmhar ar fad!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErJ3U7ZVOeA

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1532
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 09:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Macdara -> not a Dublin accent, I mean actually applying english pronunciation to the Irish letters.

Just for the record, I'm not hard on the kiddies in the gaelscoileanna, but I know of others who are no end of harsh. I actually see cause for great hope in the kids who can carry on a playground conversation without being forced to do it...regardless of the modifications they make to the language at 12 years of age...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 223
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 04:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Antaine - sometimes,listening to R na G , I am distracted by a strong Dublin or Belfast intonation.Now this is a bit unfair of me,as I'd have no problem understanding them i mBéarla.

Back on relexification;I have started to notice other things in the English of Cork,like the all pervasive use of the conditional.

'My mother would have been very devout'

'It would have been a quite a large family' etc.In my time in England I never heard these constructions used.Is 'lofa' also a way of avoiding the modh coinníollach? It's the one thing that kids panic about before the Oral test.I believe - no proof whatsoever!- teachers also avoid it.Speakers of Hiberno English should find learning Irish a lot easier,they will be using the same word order a lot of the time anyway.But city kids in particular,do not use Hiberno English and are unconsciously trying to 'relexify' Irish.Well thats me theory anyhow.

PS any other examples of 'lofa' usage gratefully accepted - I want to listen out for it now.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 05:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It works both ways - "It does be cold here in the winter" (ó: bíonn sé) "two chip" (le cloisteáil in Ulaidh, ó : dhá sceallóg) etc

I have taught in gaelscoileanna. The kids are a credit to the language and they are the last people to realise the good they do to their culture. When I worked in a coláiste samhraidh last time round I was asked by a 15 year old "An bhfuil mé pasta?" What she meant was "are we having pasta?"
A child half her age in a gaelscoil wouldn't make that mistake.

Those who are "no end of harsh" should wise up to themselves. Of course, it's easy for them to preach from their high-chair of saibhreas - is cuma le fear na mbróg cá gcuireann sé a chos. Ach, is iad atá ar strae - mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí.

Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste.

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11526
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 07:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste



Is fearr fós Gaeilge chliste! Tá an ceart agat maidir leis an óige a mholadh. Ach uaireanta baintear feidhm as an mana thuas chun cloí le Gaeilge a chodail amuigh seachas feabhas a chuir air. Tá bóthar le treabhadh idir scaoileadh le gach botún agus gach botún a cheartú go borb. Agus ní mór taithí an foghlaimeora a chuir san áireamh freisin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 1527
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

ó mo thaithí, déantar an abairt sin a scríobh ar an gcaoi sin (gan séimhiú) d'aon ghnó. Léiríonn sé bunbhrí na habairte .i. Is fearr go bhfuil mé ag caint/scríobh trí mheán na Gaeilge - is cuma faoi séimhiú.

Tá an ceart ar fad agat agus is deacair líne a tharraingt idir rudaí a cheartú/gan iad a cheartú. Is é an t-aon chonclúid atá agam, má dhéanann tú botú(i)n a cheartú déan é ar bun dearfach.
Mar shampla - A Aonghuis a chara, tá séimhiú in easnamh i d'abairt deiridh ansin, meas tú cén áit?

(Message edited by Domhnall on June 03, 2011)

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11527
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Taithí an fhoghlaimeora.

Cé gur duine séimh mé, is minic séimhiú ar lár i mo chuid Gaeilge scríofa. Drochnós an Ghaeilgeora Galltachta nach bhfuil staidéir cheart déanta ar an nGaeilge aige. Monuar.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 1528
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Duine séimh - fíormhaith! Bain orm an ceann sin a úsáid i gcúrsaí gramadaí amach anseo :)

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river



©Daltaí na Gaeilge