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The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Archive through June 03, 2011 » The complexity of the Irish Language « Previous Next »

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 04:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The complexity of the Irish Language seems to be hindering it's revival.

There seems to be a whole Irish language teaching industry protecting and profiting from it's complexity.

Then words like 'usaid, gineralta, calm' are appearing in Irish dictionaries.

When it comes to reviving the language, the emphasis seems to be in the wrong place.

The Irish language could be easily revived, if the grammer were simplified, and the phonetic richness of the vocabulary protected.

Counting objects in Irish is an obvious hindrance that could be simplified by just using the plural of the object involved in all cases.

What other suggestions can you think of that should be considered ?


_________


Irish Presidential Candidate Mulqueen.


www.wix.com/dermo8/8

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1103
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 06:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There is certainly room for the simplification of the explanation of Irish. But Irish is not really any more complex than any other language. And I disagree with your assertion on line five. I guarantee in today's conditions that the simplification would do nil for Irish, and may even harm her. You'd think that if it is easy, then why all the fuss over the years?

(Message edited by seánw on May 09, 2011)

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 258
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

If the conditions exist for people to conduct their day to day lives through the medium of Irish, then the language will survive.

If there are real advantages to being able to speak the language - better paying jobs, extra credit in schools, etc. - then the language will survive.

I personally, have no interest in learning a dumbed down version of Irish that is not spoken in ANY Gaeltacht - but that's just me …

At first, I thought the old counting system was hard:

naoi bpuint déag is trí fichid - seventy-nine pounds

But it's really not that bad - in fact it's kind of fun once you get used to it.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1524
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 09:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

You can't simplify a language by revising textbooks; the purpose of a textbook is to merely describe the conditions that exist in usage. Any real "simplification" has to be done by the people speaking it.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3936
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I agree with these answers. In history there's not any language that has been revived by being simplifying.
The problem with the Irish language, is that it is badly taught, and that most Irish people aren't motivated to use it now. Nothing to see with its difficulty. There are other languages that have been revived and that are way more difficult than Irish (eg. Basque) and they didn't change anything to simplify it. If you simplify Irish, it won't be Irish anymore and then it will lose what makes it interesting. And those who didn't want to speak Irish won't want to speak Irish either.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Sure didn't Des Bishop learn a good bit in six months. So it can't be that complex.

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 06:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It is not from descriptions of grammar that real learning of Irish is done but from native speakers in full flight. Semi-native speakers or good learners who use the language and "met the scholars" could also be a good source for new words, phrases and structures.

There is no excuse these days for not listening to the best speakers. They are available on radio and TV and on CD Rom. I am currently listening to Scéalta Cois Cladaigh Stories of Sea and Shore recorded by Seán Ó hEinirí of Cill Ghallagáin, Iorras Domhnann. I converted the cassettes that go with the book to CD Rom and play it in the car. I am gradually becoming familiar with "mhoithigh mé" for "chuala mé" and "ar mhodh ar bith" etc. There are lots of words I need to look up in the dictionary -- "ag scansaíocht cainte" for example -- but not yet.

There is plenty of good recorded material available now, Cré na Cille for example or Uair an Chloig Cois Teallaigh An Hour by the Hearth.

Ultimately however the best way is to engage in some task with a native speaker and listen. Speak as much as you can and s/he will supply the correct words and phrases to help you along.

If you really want to learn Irish you'll seize every opportunity and you'll succeed.

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 49
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The problem, Jeaicín, if I may say so, is getting hold of a copy of 'Uair an Chloig Cois Teallaigh'! Do you know of any source?

I had a copy with cassettes when it first came out, but it has gone walkabout. Agus ní mise coinín sásta - if you'll excuse a bit of Béarlais. :)

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1105
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 02:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Sure didn't Des Bishop learn a good bit in six months. So it can't be that complex.


Is that a complement to him or a put-down.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 03:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Some of my Suggestions for reviving Irish :

(i) Turn all Primary Schools in to Gaelscoileanna over the next 5 years, so that everybody would become fluent in the language.

(ii) With regard to the teaching and promotion of Irish, it would be far better to adopt a parity of esteem approach regarding Gaeilge and Béarla, thereby making the language as easy as possible to learn.

All Government web sites could employ bi-lingual web editors, and pages should be split down the middle with the Gaeilge on the left and the Béarla on the right of each web page.

The only way that a country can positively promote it's own people in the job market under EU Law is through a requirement for a recognised EU language such as Irish.


(iii) A network of Comhrá Caifes could be established ar fúd na tíre, cóngarach do Gaelscoileanna ar dtús.
To revive a language, there has to be a place to go to speak it on a daily basis. The Comhrá Caifes would create an Irish immersion environment.

Only Gaeilge would be spoken at the Comhrá Cafe and all the staff would be líofa leis an teanga.
A favourable tax rate could be afforded to the Comhrá Caife to preserve the strict Irish speaking format.


(iv) Teach tábhairne could be encouraged to set aside a Seomrá Gaeilge for the same purpose, or to stage an oíche Gaeilge one night a week, where everybody in the pub would attempt to speak Gaeilge.


(iv) Get rid of the words 'focail' and 'foclóir' in order to get rid of 'the skit factor' associated with them.

As briathar is already used for a verb, we could probably use ' cló ' for word instead ?. Clólóir would be a dictionary.

Cad é an cló ar an rud sin ?


(v) A cross-pollination of vocabulary with Scots' Gaelic to strengthen the vocabulary of phonetically beautiful sounding Gaelic words in the Clólóir.
Crann (tree) and farraige (sea) are wonderful sounding words but bád (boat) agus long (ship) are bland.

In that case, alternatives from the Scots' Gaelic dictionary should be considered by Forás na Gaeilge to replace them in the Clólóir.

Technological advancement also requires the introduction of new words in to the Clólóir, and rather than adopting an Anglicised version, it would be better to first consult the other Celtic language scholars and dictionaries to establish if they already have a suitable cló.
This would strengthen all the Celtic languages and the linkages between them.

(Cut out words like gineralta, úsáid, calm etc.

.

(vi) An Irish Grammer, verb and seanchlóanna (proverb) website.


(vii) Introduce a simple formula for counting objects i.e. number + object (+ plural of object where necessary)

eg. fiche h-aon chupan, aon-deag chupan etc


So that Irish people will be easily able to hop from Irish to English and vice versa.


A simple numbering structure would be a great boost to an Ghaeilge as numbers are the part of a language that are used most in every day life.






(viii) Corpoideachas, rince agus ceol a theagasc as an Ghaeilge i gach scoileanna.


(ix) Introduce single Gaelic words into the language for please and hello.

These could be borrowed from one of the other Celtic languages.

Buíochas could do for thank-you, and slán for Good-bye.


(x) Gaeilge Ollscoil ar fíorlion.


(xi) An on-line Gaeilge typed web chat service, where Gaeilgeoirs would be employed to assist web visitors to translate text passages of up to 30 words into Gaeilge for free.

The visitor would write in Béarla what they wish to say :
They would also have to make an attempt as Gaeilge, and the Gaeilgeoir would then correct and improve their initial version.
The Gaeilgeoirs could also advise on Irish grammer or verbs etc.

This service would be based mostly in Gaeltacht areas and provide year round employment to the local Gaeilgeoirs in their own homes.
They would probably be paid based on the number of queries that they replied to.
The Post Graduate Irish Language students based in the Gaelic Departments of Third Level Colleges could also be employed providing the service.


____
(xii) A Gaeilge template website to assist people to personalise their own story through the medium of Irish. It could be split by occupation and hobby and would provide necessary vocabulary with blank sections to be filled in by the visitor.
There could be another section split by Contae with lots of useful information tailored to provide background information on each county to the visitor.
There could be a Sports section providing useful vocabulary to encourage the coaching of the different sports through the medium of Gaeilge.
There could be a 'ceol agus rince' section to encourage their teaching through the medium of Irish, freisin.


(xiii) There should be 2 versions of the TG4 TV Channel one with sub-titles and the other without.


(xiv) Seachtain na Gaeilge should be moved to the first week of each new year to tap into dea-rún na hAthbhliana (New Year's resolutions) and the Christmas gift market.
www.snag.ie

(xv) Gaeltacht Eanár : Some counties, towns or regions could choose to be a Gaeiltacht Eanár. meaning that they would attempt to function as a Gaeltacht for the month of January.


(xvi) Conradh na Gaeilge could do an annual free calendar as Gaeilge in conjunction with Foinse, with a seanchlóanna (proverb) for every day of the year.


Gaeilge provides a priceless, cultural identity, and the web provides a perfect medium to facilitate a new enlightened approach to reviving the language.
According to a recent books by Dr John Walsh, lecturer in NUI Galway's school of language, literature and culture, the shift from Irish to English in the 19th Century had a detrimental effect both on Ireland's economy and its society.


When the language is revived, the Irish people will possess a new self-confidence from being able to converse in their native tongue, that will far outweigh the short term cost.


Ní thagann caonach ar chloch reatha.


Vótáigí

Ó Mhaolcíonaí


www.wix.com/dermo8/8

The following website will be live in a couple of days

www.presidentmulqueen.com

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3937
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

S cosuil nach bhfuil tu féin liofa i nGaeilg. Is féidir gurb é sin an fath ar mian leat i a shimpliu :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1106
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

With all due respect and charity, your ideas are mostly bad and show a great naivete when it comes to language matters. Split webpages down the middle?! Cut words out of the language?! Artificial replace others!? An English calqued numerical system?! Try your hand in the conlang world. Ab his rationibus, libera nos, Domine!

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Harp
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Username: Harp

Post Number: 73
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 07:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Several years ago Pól Ó Muirí, Eagarthóir Gaeilge, An Teanga Beo,The Irish Times wrote an article, “An gá athbhreithniú ar ghramadch na Gaeilge?”in which he gave examples of how Irish grammar could be revised in order to make Irish more user friendly for the new learner.
I’ve searched and searched the Irish Times’ archives, but to no avail.
Any revisions to the genitive case, and theUrú and the Séimhiú will piss-off the traditionalists…and so, here we are with the same old argument!!

Go maire i bhfad Ár dTeanga!!

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Clash, I think your ideas are great. Well done and thanks.

There's so much there I could only skim over them but I like the idea of a "Caifé Comhrá" in every town. I like coffee and I'd be delighted if I could get someone to talk to me, in any language. Someone willing to talk as Gaeilge would have my undivided attention.

I particularly like your reference to the "skit factor". How often have I heard "Aon focal, dhá focal, trí focal eile" sung as "a song in Irish" to great applause and amusement.

The word "siot" is seldom used now for just the same reason: the skit factor. "siota gaoithe" a gust of wind; an siota is a mháthair - the mother and child etc.

Keep up your interest, Clash, but I suggest you should learn what's already there and in use before making any big changes.

If Irish were a garden there are already beautiful shrubs plants and seeds ready to germinate there if only given a bit of care. You don't see them yet but if you dig it all up and change it you never will.

If Irish were an old building there are beautiful architectural features just waiting to be revealed to you and more than worthy of preservation. If you just knock it down and rebuild you will have lost them forever.

Irish needs to be used over and over as often as possible and in as many situations as possible to appreciate it. Native speakers use a language that has come down to them over a period of more than a thousand years. It is a highly refined language and contains a rich literature. We can't allow it to be silenced. We must use it.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter to me. I'm old. I'll soon be handing my beloved language over to you and your generation for safe keeping. Hey, I hope you'll pass it on. Now how would one say that in Irish? "Pass it on"?

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Buíochas le do aiseolas go dtí seo.

Gan amhrás, tá an cuspóir ceanna againn - teanga Ghaeilge beo a chruthú.


B'fheidir go mbeadh seans agaibh mó ábhar ar an Corpoideachas a fheachaint, agus a bhfeabhsú chomh maith ?


Slán go fóill,


Diarmúid.


Vótáigí

Ó Mhaolcíonaí.


www.wix.com/dermo8/8


Beidh an conasc seo ag obair i gcúpla laethanta.

www.presidentmulqueen.com

(Message edited by Clash on May 11, 2011)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3938
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 08:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Any revisions to the genitive case, and theUrú and the Séimhiú will piss-off the traditionalists…



not the *traditionalists* but just the people who love Irish. Those who want to simplify Irish don't like Irish.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Guevara
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Username: Guevara

Post Number: 108
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 08:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Totally agree that all primary English medium schools be turned to Gaelscoileanna however unlikely that is to happen. For a start there should be early immersion through Irish for the first three years in every school then schoolswould probably continue in Irish medium and hey presto a Gaelscoil!

Other suggestions what is popular in Wales is learning Welsh in a pub of a Tuesday night it's an informal setting and it is proving popular in places like Cardiff same could be done for Irish.

In New Zealand a native Maori speaker mentors/adopts a learner over an agreed time period and learner gets native speaker linguistic input which is priceless while the native speaker is passing on the language

In Cape Breton Nova Scotia an immersion programme is taking place where learners are invited to a native Gaelic speakers house on a Saturday and stay for afew hours speaking only Gaelic.

Of course in my opinion nothing better for uslearners than listening 24/7 to Raidio na Gaeltachta!!

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"Those who want to simplify Irish don't like Irish."


______________________________

Lughaidh,

that is a very narrow view.

We live in a changing World, and a vibrant Irish language would be a tremendous benefit to the country and our sense of identity.

e.g. I believe that a straight-forward numbering structure would allow us to concentrate on other more important aspects of the language, such as expanding our vocabulary.

Slán go foill,


Diarmúid.

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Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 259
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dermott, you've got some very good ideas and some not-so-good ideas.

I basically agree with everything you say except when you talk about tinkering with the language itself. I don't think the Irish language is in need of simplification for the benefit of learners and any "improvements" of that kind will only serve to marginalize native speakers and drive away people with a genuine interest in the language.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1109
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 11:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I believe that a straight-forward numbering structure


Straight forward means English, right?

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Obuadhaigh
Member
Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 50
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 11:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Of all that's been said here, I find the Caife Comhrá and Adopt-a-Learner ideas the best and the most workable. Caife Comhrá is surely an opportunity for private enterprise to step in, perhaps in an otherwise failing small fast-food business?

Turning all national schools into Gaelscoileanna is great in theory too, but it doesn't do much for parental choice. I would like to see the present situation of Gaelscoileanna continue to expand according to demand, and perhaps make some provision for existing national schools to become Gaelscoileanna if a majority of the parents would support such a move. To me, it's all about making it easier for Irish-medium education to happen where it's wanted. Attempted force will produce an opposite reaction. We have enough of an uphill struggle with adding Newtonian resistance to our lot. ;)

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 652
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 01:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Re. "Pass it on": Tabhair do?

Any other ways to say this?

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1110
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 03:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

seachaid

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Clash
Member
Username: Clash

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 04:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Buíochas le do aiseolas, arís.


(i) I believe that the words 'Focal and focloir' should go in the interests of the language.

People who hate the Irish language always pick on focal and foclóir to ridicule and discredit it.

I accept that those words existed before the 'curse' but it is a distraction that the language could do without.

I suggested 'cló' and 'clólóir'

What words would ye choose to replace focal & foclóir ?

Could ye could ask native speakers for their suggestions ?


(ii) Cheapaim go mbeadh an rud eile níos tábhachtaí ná an scéim uimhir soiléir.

aon chupan
aon-deag chupan
fiche h-aon chupan
seasca h-aon chupan etc.

___________

Then we would all be able to concentrate on building up a broad vocabulary of phonetically beautiful sounding Gaelic words.


(iii) One word for 'hello' and 'please' would also benefit the language.

Again, maybe ye could ask native speakers for their suggestions ?




Slán go foill,



Diarmúid.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3939
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Lughaidh,

that is a very narrow view.



No. It's just a reasonable view.

quote:

We live in a changing World, and a vibrant Irish language would be a tremendous benefit to the country and our sense of identity.



do you really think that the Irish people will love Irish more, only because its grammar is made simpler in schoolbooks? Really... You can change whatever you want, those who don't want to speak Irish won't speak Irish, and those who want to speak Irish will speak Irish. Just as it is now.
In a changing world, since humans speak, languages change from generation to generation through the speech of native speakers. And only like that. Languages don't change because a government has decided to simplify it because the population is too lazy to learn it. There's no language in history that has been simplified by a government so that the citizens can learn it more easily. You know why? Because it's stupid.

I think there are many people in the world who'd like English grammar to be simplified, because sometimes it's very hard. And you know why nobody simplifies it? Because it'd be stupid. So why would one do it with Irish?

quote:

e.g. I believe that a straight-forward numbering structure would allow us to concentrate on other more important aspects of the language, such as expanding our vocabulary.



But the irish vocabulary is too hard to learn, isn't it? Let's simplify it. Let's abandon two-thirds of the Irish words, and replace the rest by English words. Let's replace the Irish grammar rules by English rules because they are simpler to learn. And let's abandon the strange Irish sounds, and replace them by the closest English ones so that they are easier to pronounce.
In other words : let's replace Irish by English. It'll be much easier.

quote:

People who hate the Irish language always pick on focal and foclóir to ridicule and discredit it.



Why? I don't see why they are considered ridiculous. Focal derives from Latin vocabulum, it has been borrowed more than 1000 years ago. Focloir derives from Latin vocabularium.
Btw, I don't care about the opinions of those who hate Irish, really.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1111
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I reiterate that the conlang world is waiting for you.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11480
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 04:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Scríobh Lughaidh:

quote:

You can change whatever you want, those who don't want to speak Irish won't speak Irish, and those who want to speak Irish will speak Irish. Just as it is now.



Sin é. Mian an eochair. Sa Ghaeltacht agus sa Ghalltacht. Má tá aon rud le cur le rath na teangain, is rud a bheidh ann a bhfuil feidhm aige ar mhianta daoine.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh / Aonghus / Seanw,

Buíochas le do aiseolas.

I can understand your reticence as you are Gaelic scholars and your whole identity and self-worth revolves around mastering and protecting a minority language, which you have all done.

Whereas, I would like to see the majority of Irish people fluent in the language.

The Chinese had a major literacy problem in the 1950s due to the complexity of their language.

So their Government simplified it, and succeeded in reviving it.

I'm not suggesting major changes.

(i) scéim uimhir soiléir

(ii) An chríoch le focal agus foclóir.

(iii) Aon cló for hello agus please.

Slan go fóill,


Diarmúid.


'Ní mhol an lá um thráthnóna'


Beidh an conasc seo beo ar a 17 o cloig.

www.presidentmulqueen.com

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11481
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Why? I don't see why they are considered ridiculous.



De bharr cúinge cluaise an ghnáth Bhéarlóra nach gcloiseann ach foirm éigin den mionn úd foc iontu. Sílim. Dream sách corr iad lucht labhartha an t-aon teanga amháin, 'dtuigeann tú?

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11482
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ní scoláire mé. Gnáth chainteoir Gaeilge Galltachta mé. Ní ionann scríobh na teangain a thabhairt i gcomhréir le labhairt na teangain, mar a rinne na Sínigh, agus an teanga fhéin a shimpliú. (Níl ach 18+ litir in úsáid sa Ghaeilge)

Le lucht a labhartha seachas le foghlaimeoirí an Ghaeilge: ní mór do teagasc na teangain an teanga a chuir san áireamh, ní an bealach eile thart.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3940
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

The Chinese had a major literacy problem in the 1950s due to the complexity of their language.

So their Government simplified it, and succeeded in reviving it.



That's not true. The government has simplified the spelling of certain characters, that's all. They haven't simplified the grammar at all - anyway in China, most people speak Mandarin Chinese or some language quite close to it, so it's not so difficult for them to learn Standard Chinese.
Btw, in Taiwan and in some other Chinese-speaking places, people continue to use the traditional characters and they have no problem with it.
Read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character#Reform

Succeeded in reviving it? The Chinese language never needed to be revived! About one person out of six (or more) in the world speaks it, so it's not what you'd call an endangered language...

quote:

De bharr cúinge cluaise an ghnáth Bhéarlóra nach gcloiseann ach foirm éigin den mionn úd foc iontu. Sílim. Dream sách corr iad lucht labhartha an t-aon teanga amháin, 'dtuigeann tú?



Nach cuma linn fá chupla amadán atá ag iarraidh magadh a dhéanamh fán teangaidh? In achan teangaidh gheobhaidh tú focla a bheas aisteach le daoiní a labhras teangaidh eile. Níl muid a' gabháil a dh'athrú na teangtha le cupla amadán a shásamh - cibé ar bith cha bhfoghlaimeann na hamadáin sin an teangaidh. Na daoiní a labhras Gaeilg agus na daoiní ar maith leofa Gaeilg, is cuma leofa má tá "focal" cosúil le "f*ck all" nó le rud inteacht mar sin.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Cheapaím go bhfuil na foglaimeoirí óga den Ghaeilge níos tabhachtaí, agus tá a lán ama ag cur amú leis an focal 'skit factor'.


Vótáigí


Ó Mhaolcíonaí.



Beidh an conasc seo beo ar a 17 ó Cloig.


www.presidentmulqueen.com

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11483
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Chím go bhfuil mo dhuine ag stocaireacht do vótaí. Bí ag caint ar cuir amú ama - más Uachtaránacht na hÉireann atá i gceist, níl ach fíor chorr saoránach abhus anseo.

quote:

Nach cuma linn fá chupla amadán



Is cuma. Sa tsioc.

'Bhfuil ceist feolmhar arbh fiú í a phlé ag aoinne?

(Message edited by aonghus on May 12, 2011)

(Message edited by aonghus on May 12, 2011)

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 727
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 02:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

An bhfuil gá le teiripeoir focal?

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3941
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Chím go bhfuil mo dhuine ag stocaireacht do vótaí. Bí ag caint ar cuir amú ama - más Uachtaránacht na hÉireann atá i gceist, níl ach fíor chorr saoránach abhus anseo.



Agus cibith, ni i bhforam Ghaeilge a gheobhas sé na milte daoini a aontochas leis... B'fhearr do ghabhail ar fhoram air a bhfuil daoini ar fuath leofa an Ghaeilg...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Dubhthach
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Username: Dubhthach

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2010
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

What's all this talk about focal "skit factor". Is it to do with Richie Kavanagh song or because some people are puerile and are rhyming it with a word in english?

Tbh the issue isn't with the language it's with the way it's thought. I spent 5 years in an Irish speaking primary school. When I went into secondary school the difference with those who had been in a english speaking primary school was like night and day.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 386
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 05:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Silliest thread ever.

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Silliest thread ever?

No. I don't agree. Each of us have our own reasons for being here.

There is a wide spectrum of possible reasons for an interest in this site and in the Irish language ranging from those with no more than a casual desire to aquire a few words of their ancestral tongue to those with an intense need to achieve near-native speaker fluency. Others want to learn the grammar to write in Irish and use it in their job.

Others want to be able to teach the language or speak it ar an gceannadhart and rear a family through Irish.

Then there are the linquists for whom Irish is just one of many languages. They are particularly interested in the Irish learnt naturally from native-speaking parents.

My point is that there is a place for all of us.

If Clash - Diarmaid Ó Maolchionai -- is elected President / Uachtarán of Ireland we will be pleased that he has shared his ideas with us.

Clash: Why do you put the "h" on the M of your name? Is it an error of your own or your teacher's? McLysaght and de Bhulbh give Mulqueen as Ó Maolchaoine or Ó Maolchaoin. (By the way, does your Mammy sing?)

Anyway I've had a look at your webpages and I wish you luck in your election strategy. Whatever about your views on changing Irish to simplify it and avoid the skit factor [-- Now. That's silly! --] it is obvious your heart's in the right place and I wish you well.

If it is a choice between you and David Norris you'll have my Number 1.


Keep with the Gaeilge now! Don't forget about it after the election! Caithfidh tú coinneáil ort ag foghlaim is ag cleachtadh. Go n-éirí go geal leat.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

'What's all this talk about focal "skit factor". Is it to do with Richie Kavanagh song or because some people are puerile and are rhyming it with a word in english?'


(i) It wouldn't be an issue only 'focal' (word) and foclóir (dictionary) are the 2 most important words, (and most commonly used) when learning any language.

This issue revolves around respect.

To create a proper teaching environment, you have to get students to respect the language, and those who are teaching it.

In the development of all languages, certain words fall out of favour and are replaced by other words.

If native Irish speakers replaced 'focal' and 'foclóir' with alternatives, it might help create a better teaching environment, and make life easier for Irish teachers ?.

My suggestions were 'cló' (word) clónna (iolra) clólóir (dictionary).

It would be up to the native speakers to decide for themselves.

_______

(ii) scéim uimhir soiléir : is about making the language more efficient, and user friendly.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11489
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Cló does not mean word. It means shape.

http://www.potafocal.com/Metasearch.aspx?Text=cl%C3%B3&GotoID=focloirbeag

quote:

In the development of all languages, certain words fall out of favour and are replaced by other words.



Quite. But it is speakers who determine what is in favour, not learners.

What matters is motivation. Many of those who "can't" learn Irish, and get a psychologists cert proving it are seemingly able to learn other languages which are more complex. German, for example. So tinkering with the language will get us nowhere. Even if it were possible, which it isn't because there are plenty of speakers of the language speaking it every day.

The first key thing would be to ensure that all teachers of Irish in the education system are fluent. Then, that they are as far as possible motivated and enthusiastic. That will communicate itself to their pupils.

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 01:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Á. A Chlais, you're losing my Vóta #1. You can't just drop words and introduce others arbitrarily. Tóg go bog é.

Try the "Caifé Comhrá" idea first agus bíodh an riail seo ann: iad siúd a labhróidh Béarla ní bhfaighidh siad tae ná caife. Only joking! They might be visitors from abroad with the new Chinese / Indian visa waivers.

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Croga75
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Username: Croga75

Post Number: 233
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 02:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am a bit confused on how changing the words 'focal' and 'foclóir' make a language easier to learn. You learn the word for an item in that langauge and move one, thats how it works. I mean while we're at it, why not change the word order to English so people will have an 'easier' time learning Irish. And forget about all the sounds that are different from English that makes Irish so unique sounding, we'll just change those to strickly English sounds, because lets face it, who wants to learn a language if its difficult. We can then change the name to Engrish.

If people want to learn Irish , then they will, the way it is.

Ní bhfaighir faisnéis mara ndeinir fiafraí.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 05:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Jeacín,

Ó Maolchaoin is another version of the name.

Our surname translated was Mulqueeny, but we dropped the y a century ago.

We originated from Ballymulqueeny, near Ennis.

Mulqueeny, Mulquinny, Mulkeeny, Mulqueen + Mulquin would probably be all from the same source, originally.

I read it in an Irish Surnames Book that the 'Mulqueen' surname originated from 'blunt chief' or 'gentle chief,' as our surname was Mulqueeny, it was probably Anglicised straight from 'Ó Maolchíonaí'.

Therefore, I believe that Mulqueeny in Irish would probably have been Ó Maolchíonaí (descendant of the blunt chiefs or blunt champions).

________

However, if the Gaelic surname had been Ó Maolchaoin, then in our case, it would probably have been Ó Maolchaoiní originally - anglicised as Mulqueeny.

____________



http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Mulqueeny


Vótáigí


Ó Maolchíonaí.


www.presidentmulqueen.com

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11491
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 07:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://www.logainm.ie/6475.aspx

"Baile Uí Mhaolchaoine" an leagan údarásach.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 10:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Nó - Baile Uí Mhaolchíonaí



B'fheidir go mbeadh logainm.ie mí-cheart ?

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 11:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Nó - Baile Uí Mhaolchaoiní ??

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I don't think "maol" in surnames means "blunt". It refers to the tonsure -- a cool haircut worn by young monks long ago -- and hence to the idea of "holy" or "blessed". Obviously celibacy wasn't a requirement for holiness in days of yore since we have lots of surnames with Ó (descendant of) and Mac (son of) followed by Maol ~~~ not to mention Mac an tSagairt and Mac an Easpaig. Quite right too.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11492
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 01:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

B'fheidir go mbeadh logainm.ie mí-cheart?



Is mó m'iontaibh as na scolairí a bhfuil an cheist cíortha acu ná asat, i gcead duit. Cén foinse atá agat do do leagansa? Is minic an leagan Bearla de sloinne nó logainm truaillaithe.

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Rud_ar_bith
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Username: Rud_ar_bith

Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 03:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

is múinteoir bunscoile mé - I really find it difficult to understand your wish to remove words from the Irish language because you are afraid that they cause people to 'laugh', or that by doing so you will make the Irish language easier to learn, I spend my life teaching Irish to children and young adults and have yet to come across the use of the word 'focail' or 'foclóir' slow down development of the language. What you are suggesting hinders our language, how do you propose we wean out the use of the word? changing the vocabulary we speak and teach does nothing but cause confusion to the youth that you are speaking about. There are funny sounding words in every language in the world, that is part of life and doesn't not prevent the growth of the Irish language, if you spent time teaching the language you would realise this, however I think many of your other ideas about Caifé Comhra s.r.l are excellent, ádh mór leis seo

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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 04:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Maith thú, a Rud-ar-bith. Nach fearr an t-imreas ná an t-uaigneas. Is maith an rud go bhfuil Clais ag nochtadh a thuairimí anseo. Tá's ag Dia go mbíonn plé an-ardléannta teangeolaíochtúil anseo ar uairibh a chuirfeadh lag-mhisneach ar an nGaeilgeoir ba dhíograisí amuigh. Is mór an faoiseamh an ghnáthsheafóid.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1116
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 09:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I don't think "maol" in surnames means "blunt". It refers to the tonsure -- a cool haircut worn by young monks long ago -- and hence to the idea of "holy" or "blessed". Obviously celibacy wasn't a requirement for holiness in days of yore since we have lots of surnames with Ó (descendant of) and Mac (son of) followed by Maol ~~~ not to mention Mac an tSagairt and Mac an Easpaig. Quite right too.


These were servants/devotees of the priests, bishop, saints, etc., not their descendants.

And tonsure is still very common.

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 219
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 01:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Maol Colm - or whoever - was a devotee of that saint or cleric.If my surname is Malcolm or Mac Aleese then I am not such a devotee or follower of that holy one.I am a descendant of said follower or devotee.That is quite uncontoversial;these names are patronymics after all.Many McTaggarts, for instance, are Scottish Protestants.Good luck telling them about clerical celibacy.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3942
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 05:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Is mór an faoiseamh an ghnáthsheafóid.



LOL

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 51
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 07:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Clerical celibacy: apart from genuine cases of clerical incontinence among celibates, there must also be taken into account the priests and bishops of the Scottish Episcopalian Church (and its various historic branches no longer with us as distinct ecclesial bodies) who were under no obligation to be celibate. The Piskies were particularly well established in Highland areas after the majority of the people ceased to be Catholics. The major inroads of presbyterianism came later to many such areas.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11493
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 08:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is fíor sin uilig, ach caolseans go bhfuil baint ar bith aige le sloinnte, atá níos ársa.

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

'is múinteoir bunscoile mé - I really find it difficult to understand your wish to remove words from the Irish language because you are afraid that they cause people to 'laugh', or that by doing so you will make the Irish language easier to learn, I spend my life teaching Irish to children and young adults and have yet to come across the use of the word 'focail' or 'foclóir' slow down development of the language. What you are suggesting hinders our language, how do you propose we wean out the use of the word? changing the vocabulary we speak and teach does nothing but cause confusion to the youth that you are speaking about. There are funny sounding words in every language in the world, that is part of life and doesn't not prevent the growth of the Irish language, if you spent time teaching the language you would realise this, however I think many of your other ideas about Caifé Comhra s.r.l are excellent, ádh mór leis seo'

__________________


What you could do is add 'cló' to the dictionary, as an alternative word for 'word', and clólóir for dictionary ?.

So, in the dictionary there would be 2 options for each word (cló and focal) (clólóir and foclóir), and teachers and students could use either one.

Cló is currently used for shape and form, so it might be best to either create a new word or to borrow a word (not in use in Irish) from a different Celtic language, to avoid any confusion.

Over time, focal and foclóir could be phased out.
__________

I've made up an Irish word for word i.e. Ogha (derived from the ogham alphabet).

Ogha could be word, and Oglalóir could be dictionary.


As the word ogham is probably derived from og-úaim (point-seam : referring to the seam made by the point of a sharp weapon),


Ogúaim could be another option for word, and Ogúaimlóir could be dictionary.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham

___________


This wouldn't be any issue only word and dictionary are the 2 most common and important words in learning any language, and An Ghaeilge needs to be revived.


I remember from my own school days that there were lots of smart comments under the breath re: focal, that were a distraction.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11494
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 09:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Scoil aisteach, sílim.

Níl an Ghaeilge marbh! Tá na mílte daoine á labhairt gach lá. Dá mbeadh sí marbh, b'fhéidir go mbeadh rath éigin ar do smaointe teanga bréige a chumadh agus Gaeilge a bhaisteadh air.

Maidir le Ogham:

++oghum
the "Ogam" writing, so Irish, Early Irish ogum, Ogma ma Elathan (son of knowledge), the Hercules of the Gaelic gods, Gaulish Ogmios, the Gaulish Hercules and god of eloquence: *Ogambio-s. Cf. Greek @Go@'/gmos ( @G*g-mos?), a furrow, line, Sanskrit ájmas, course, run, root ag: the comparison is very doubtful. See oidheam.

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.O

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1117
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

This reminds me of William Barnes and his Anglo-Saxon purist movement with words like sunprint (photograph), gleecraft (music), loreless (ignorant), speechcraft (grammar), outgate (exit), and yearhundred (century). How many people say these words, or think of them as even English?

A couple simple points to keep in mind:

1. Natural languages are inefficient, and rightly so since they come from humans, not machines. Meddling with a language to make it more efficient is to hasten its death.

2. Some people are stupid. They say stupid things. They act stupidly. Should I have changed my names because of the numerous jokes I received as a youth? (Sean, pawn, leprechaun ...; pronouncing it as "seen".) Hardly a basis to artificially alter a language.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11495
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 03:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

How many people say these words, or think of them as even English?



Gearmáinís tiontaithe!
Seachas an chéad ceann arbh Gaeilge é - grianghraif!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3944
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 05:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A Chlash, silim go bhfuil tu ag cailleadh do chuid ama anseo.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Curiousfinn
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Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 451
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 10:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Maidin mhaith (??) daoibh, a chairde!

Tá inimirce "ábhar te" i bhFionlainn anois, agus tagann a lán daoine isteach sa tír. Is dócha go dtionscnóidh siad Fionnlainnis a foghlaim go luath nó mall. An gá dóibh cúnamh a thabairt chun a bhfoghlaim le simpliú an teanga?

Cad a bhainfimis amach i dtosach? Agglutination? Nó forainmneacha iomarcacha in abairtí an tríú duine freisin?

Ab cheart go raibh na briathra in abairtí dearfacha is diúltacha sa ceanna foirm? Ab cheart nach raibh chomh lán foirmeacha ag na briathra "olla" agus "ei"?

Is féidir go bhfuil Fionnlainnis mar sin níos fusa a foghlaim, ach tá eagla orm nach éireoidh na foghlaimeoirí liofa go gasta ar bith.

-------------

Scríobh Seanw:

> (Sean, pawn, leprechaun ...; pronouncing it as "seen".)

Céard faoi Sean Bean? Tá an t-ainm sin beagán greannmhar de réir an dearcadh Gaeilge...

A thine, siúil liom!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11498
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 04:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Cé mhéid de lucht inimirce thall ar Anglafónaigh iad? Is cosúil go gcuireann an Béarla bac ar dhaoine teangacha eile a shealbhú! (Dúirt George Orwell féin an méid sin - an té a tógadh le Béarla agus nár shealbhaigh teanga roimh aois a 16 dó, go mbeadh thiar air ina dhiaidh sin)

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 06:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ni thúigim cen fáth go bhfuil 'na focalheads' chomh stuacach leis an ábhar seo ?

Sílim go bhfuil sé níos fearr, da mbeadh rogha againn ?

Tá focal eile a chruthú agam in ionad focal, as briathar 'scríobh' i.e scría, scríaí (in iolra) agus scríalóir dictionary.


Cad é an scría ar an rud sin ? What is the word for that ?


http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb32.html

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11499
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 06:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A Chlash chaoin, an é nach dtuigeann tú nach rud saorga an teanga? Is as caint na ndaoine a thagann focail nua, ní as cloigeann maorlathaigh!

Cead agat do rogha nath a mhúnlú, ach mura bhfuil tú páirteach sa chomhrá, caolseans go nglacfar leis.

Muide a labhraíonn í a roghnaínn na briathra a mbaineann muid feidhm astu!

(Message edited by aonghus on May 19, 2011)

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Clash
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Username: Clash

Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 10:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá dhá slí ann chun focail nua a chuir sa foclóir.

(i) As comhrá ginearálta ?

(ii) na póilíní foclóra Gaeilge.


Tá mé ag iarraigh comhrá a thosaigh ar focail eile a chruthú in ionad focal agus foclóir.

I'm just trying to stimulate a dialogue about the creation of another Irish word for focal, as an alternative, that the Irish dictionary police could consider adding to the scríalóir,
or that native speakers might like and start using themselves.

eg :

scría agus scríalóir (as an briathar scríobh)


ogú agus ogúlóir (from ogúaim = point-seam - ogham alphabet)


http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham


I was hoping that other contributors might come up with their own suggestions.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 11:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

How about the words word and dictionary. That seems logical since everybody already uses them.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11500
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 11:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There is no "Irish dictionary police"

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. And top down attempts to coin Irish words for concepts not yet in the language have not really been successful in influencing Gaeltacht speech.

We can discuss here until the cows come home, but it will not change a focal [stet] of the living language. Newspeak might work in an Orwell novel, or in a conlang. But not in the living speech of a population.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11501
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://focloir.ie/

http://focloir.ie/corpus_g/default.asp

quote:

Leagadh síos i dtús thionscadal an Fhoclóra Nua Béarla-Gaeilge gur den riachtanas corpais shuntasacha Béarla agus Gaeilge a bheith mar bhonn faoin saothar, mar a éilíonn dea-chleachtas na foclóireachta comhaimseartha


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Jeaicín
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Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 124
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am sure Clais is pulling our leg, writing tongue in cheek, or putting the fool further, but it is obvious he imagines Irish is dead and gone and can be messed about with at will.

Thankfully the language is far from moribund and the only way he will introduce new words to it is by writing a work of literary genius in Irish and introducing his ideas to us in that way.

Dean Swift gave us "Houyhnhnms, Lilliputians, and Yahoos."

Ar aon nós, molaim duit, a Chlais, an Ghaeilge atá anois againn a shaothrú agus do dhícheall a dhéanamh í a fhoghlaim i gceart.

Nach é sin ár gcuspóir uilig anseo?

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1119
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Jeaicín hints at one way to add words to the language. If you get a creative wordsmith out there, then they can influence the language. And in fact they already have. I think the focal thing or the numerals are tempests in a teapot. They may even be viewed as a badge of honor. If you can get people pissed, it means they're listening usually. Read any management book about micromanagement, and you'll see it is universally despised except for in the most emergency situations. Micromanagement kills morale, causes people to feel like they don't have control over their destiny, etc.



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