I'm reading "Rún an Bhonnáin" by Proinsias Mac a'Bhaird, a book published last year. Part of the action takes place in 1788 in the general Cavan area. The action involves a dialogue between a young boy and an old dying priest who the youngster is helping to look after. The young boy uses the 2nd person plural to address the priest. The priest speaks to him using the 2st person singular. The boy's mother also speaks to the priest using the 2nd person plural.

I don't think I have ever come across an instance in Irish, either in reality or in the media or in literature, where the 2nd person plural is used as a formal or polite form of address to an elder or authority figure such as a priest, as in other languages, German for example.

Am I correct? Perhaps such a polite form exists and I'm not aware of it. Maybe it did in the late 18th century and has fallen into disuse. Can any one enlighten me?

I've seen this topic discussed before. I never heard of such a custom myself until I logged in to discussion boards such as this but since it exists in other languages it would not surprise me to find that it existed in Irish at some time.

I did a google on the issue and I have found that according to at least one article on Wikipedia the priest was/is traditionally addressed as "sibh" in Ulster Irish, ie the second person plural. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T–V_distinction

Ulster/priest/sibh: this is true. I once had it explained to me that it was in case he was carrying the Blessed Sacrament, in which case, there is more than one person present. This sounds to me like a pious interpretation of a surviving vestige of an earlier usage.

In Gàidhlig na hAlban the 2nd person plural is used when addressing someone with whom one is not on familiar terms: Ciamar athá sibh? However, I do not know how strictly this is adhered to.

In any case, this would point to its usage in Irish in a past era too.

One has to remember that English is more the exception than the rule in its usage of one version of the second person singular.

I do not have direct knowledge of how often this was employed, but I think it was used a little in the past. I think it is long gone now. Proinsias did a lot of research to write the book, so he probably wanted to give the feeling of authenticity, to reflect the time period and place.

quote:

One has to remember that English is more the exception than the rule in its usage of one version of the second person singular.

Certainly. We can blame the French for introducing this! I think, though, that most dialects of English in speech have ways of working around this. One common one in the US is you for singular and you all/y'all/you guys for plural. Thank God the Irish didn't go down this road. Imagine all the bickering about Bible translations etc because of this.

Interestingly, on the other end some dialects kept the singular thou/thee for quite a while.

Re: y'all - how many times have I wished that 'thee' had been retained? even if only to avoid Scottish 'yooz' and 'yee' which I've heard here in Donegal. My cousins in Antrim have 'you anes'. Perhaps others could add to the list of unpalatable substitutes?

I use "ye" quite a bit - e.g. if I'm talking to one of my kids about all of them.
.. or texting "are ye coming to dinner on Sunday?" implies that whole household is invited, not just the recipient.

eadaoin

Ye is commonly used as is yiz and youse. They are really useful. Even if we can't speak Irish we can mess up English.

... are ...

Ye is perfectly correct.When I was at school in Dublin I got to be teacher's pet - for a day - because I knew the 2nd person plural.The other lads all said 'Youz!'when the Brother asked.One example of my culchie roots being an asset for a change.

Don't authority figures eg the Queen of England,the Pope, use 'we' to mean themselves? Implying that God is with them,or maybe they have multiple personalities!

D'fhoghlaim mise an nós sin agus úsáidim é.

Ach is minic a cheaptar gur botún é.

Mar a gcéanna leis an chuid is mó den chanúnachas a bheadh agam, meastar gur meáncógaí iad inniú agus chan lucht an chaighdeáin oifigiúla a shaoileanns sin!

Jeaicin ..."Ye is commonly used as is yiz and youse. They are really useful. Even if we can't speak Irish we can mess up English."

agus ná dean dearmad ar "yizzer"

eadaoin

quote:

I once had it explained to me that it was in case he was carrying the Blessed Sacrament, in which case, there is more than one person present.

My mother used to say that too!

But obviously it is a formal form of the plural that is still used in Scots Gaelic and Welsh etc but no longer used in Irish. It was used for priests longer than for others so people that didn't know the history misunderstood the reason.

"Don't authority figures eg the Queen of England,the Pope, use 'we' to mean themselves? Implying that God is with them,or maybe they have multiple personalities!"

I was told that was because the monarch speaks for the State. When the queen is not amused, the nation is not amused (etc)

Then the English wouldn't appear to be amused very often,a Antaine! I wonder will QE2 attempt the cúpla focail.Her predecessor Elizabeth 1st had an Irish language phrase book of course.

Perhaps, but honestly, my interest in what british royals think or do tops out just below my interest in my next-door neighbor's broken shoelace...

It's a pity she isn't visiting a Gaelic-speaking Ireland. That would be much more interesting.