mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (March-April) » Archive through March 21, 2011 » Lenitions in relatives clauses « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hugo75
Member
Username: Hugo75

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2011
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 07:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I read somewhere that, in a relative clause, when "a" was object, the verb was lenited. But I read this sentence too :
(Is é) an obair atá Pól a dhéanamh (ná) an seomra a ghlanadh

"a" is the work that pol is doing, so an object. So, if I apply the rule, instead of ata there should be atha.

Can somebody make that clear please ? Thank you!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3876
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá is never lenited, it can't be lenited, so while you'd expect "a thá", you use "atá".

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hugo75
Member
Username: Hugo75

Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2011
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 05:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In my gaelic guide (patrick le besco "parlons gaélique") there is a traduction of "na connerys" and, somewhere, this sentence :

ar an ngasra úd athá ceangailte go dlúth le do thaoibh

Here tá is subject and lenited, it is strange.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 06:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

That is a wonderful song in the Déise dialect. There is still a vigorous Gaeltacht in Rinn Ó gCuanach near Dún Garbhán. Strangely in the spoken language we find "thá" at both ends of the Gaelic-speaking area: in Waterford and in Scotland.

In written Irish, where the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is the best guide for us learners unless we really want to learn and write accurately in one of the beautiful dialects, "tá" is not lenited.

To learn the pronunciation of a song always listen to the original dialect sung by native speakers. To speak or sing in Irish we have to follow the pronunciation of one of the main dialects.

Many famous well-meaning singers have been induced to sing Irish songs on their "album" and for me hearing the sounds of Irish mis-pronounced is ghastly. For learners it is sabotage and treachery. They hear Irish sung with English pronunciation.

It shouldn't happen. They send their children for "Elocution" in English. Why don't they make sure they know how to pronounce the Irish words before launching such a travesty on the unsuspecting world. Gaelic how are you.


Beware of what you read also. Some disgracefully stupid decisions were taken by editors and publishers in the recent past changing the words of traditional songs to the CO and ruining them.

Did Nioclás Tóibín record "Na Connerys"? He is the best exponent of Déise sean-nós singing.

(Message edited by jeaicín on March 19, 2011)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hugo
Member
Username: Hugo

Post Number: 109
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 07:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Isn't "athá" for "atá" the norm in Munster Irish?

(Message edited by Hugo on March 19, 2011)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3878
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 09:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I was wondering if someone would come and say "but some people say "thá"!". But just in case, I didn't mention it in my answer to keep it simple :-)

One may say thá and athá are common in several Munster dialects, but not all.

Actually in "athá", the lenition of "tá" isn't caused by the relative particle "a", it is a permanent lenition. Even without "a" before, people say "thá" (in the dialects where it does exist of course).
So in these dialects, everytime you'd expect "tá" they say "thá" and everytime you'd expect "atá" they say "athá".
It's not a grammatical lenition, like.

quote:

In my gaelic guide (patrick le besco "parlons gaélique")



be careful, this book is, unfortunately, full of mistakes...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hugo75
Member
Username: Hugo75

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2011
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 10:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I've read something else strange in this book : the possessive adjective "do" is contracted in "t'" behind a wovel, while on an e-site it becomes "d'".

(Message edited by hugo75 on March 19, 2011)

(Message edited by hugo75 on March 19, 2011)

(Message edited by hugo75 on March 19, 2011)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3879
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 01:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

This time it's right, Connemara and Munster Irish use t' in this case ; Donegal uses d' (and standard uses d' as well).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/



©Daltaí na Gaeilge