mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (March-April) » Archive through March 21, 2011 » Spelling anomalies « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Driftwood814
Member
Username: Driftwood814

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 12:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I was talking with my son about caol le caol agus leathan le leathan, and he (buachaill cliste) immediately honed in on the words “anseo” and “arís.” When I explained to him that a handful of words don’t follow the rule, he asked me “Then how do you know whether the consonant is broad or slender?” “Ceist mhaith, a mhic. Níl a fhios agum.”

I would assume that some of the aberrations that aren’t compound words had to do with the CO, thus the pronunciation would be determined by the pre-reform spelling, but I don’t really know. Could someone please enlighten me? How do you know whether the consonant in such words is broad or slender?

GRMA

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeaicín
Member
Username: Jeaicín

Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 02:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

One consonant is broad and the other slender?

an~~ shows that the ~n~ is broad.
~seo shows the ~s~ is slender

ar~~ shows broad ~r~

ospidéal -- shows broad ~s~ and slender ~p~

That's my understanding of the spelling anyway. Máirtín Ó Cadhain pronounced the word "scéal" with a broad sc~

Others here have far more knowledge of the sounds of Irish than I but I suggest that going by the spelling alone will not give you all the sound changes in the spoken language. Clusters of words influence each other so that words that are spelled with broad or slender consonants don't sound like that in speech. You (and I) really need to listen carefully to the excellent native Irish speakers who are now available on sound files such as those on RTÉ / Raidio na Gaeltachta.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cead_ite
Member
Username: Cead_ite

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Some such words are spelled that way because they were originally in fact two separate words...

E.g., modern standard "anseo" was earlier spelled "annseo," from "ann seo."

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Driftwood814
Member
Username: Driftwood814

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 03:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go raibh maith agaibh as an aiseolas. @Jeaicín, that makes perfect sense with regard to anseo, as there are two consonants. I hadn't thought of that. But "arís" had me stumped. @Cead_ite, thank you, I had thought earlier spelling might be a factor.
quote:

You (and I) really need to listen carefully to the excellent native Irish speakers who are now available on sound files such as those on RTÉ / Raidio na Gaeltachta.


I will be spending 3 weeks in the Gaeltacht come August. Most of it will be spent simply listening. But it wasn't really so much knowing how to pronounce the words (as you say, there are soundfiles) but how to answer his question. Spoken English seldom sounds as it's spelled either, word clusters, slurring, etc., but one thing at a time. Particularly with children!

GRMA, arís!

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Croga75
Member
Username: Croga75

Post Number: 209
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In Munster anseo is anso just as ansin is ansan

Má tá Gaelainn agat, labhair amach í!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3852
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 05:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In "anseo", the n is slender as well...

quote:

That's my understanding of the spelling anyway. Máirtín Ó Cadhain pronounced the word "scéal" with a broad sc~



that does exist in some dialects, yes.


As far as I know, the words that break the slender/slender & broad/broad rule, are either loanwords or compound words (but you don't always see they are compound words now).

Aris is a+ris (cf Gaelic a-rithist)
aniar is an+iar...

Normally the consonants are pronounced according to the following vowel.
Of course, with aris, since it is a+ris and that all initial r- are broad, the r is broad.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1062
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 06:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post


I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge