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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (March-April) » Archive through March 21, 2011 » OT: The Eagle (2011 Film) - Use of Irish and Gaelic for Picts « Previous Next »

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 619
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I watched The Eagle tonight and noticed that they used a mix of Irish and Scottish Gaelic in place of Pictish (those living north of Hadrian's Wall being referred to as the 'seal people' in the movie).

Has anyone else on the forum seen this film? I was surprised how much dialogue they actually included. I guess I'm used to actors speaking only English, even if they are portraying groups who historically never spoke the language. The Picts spoke nothing but Gaelic throughout, with subtitles. One of the boys in the film is from Belfast and was educated through Irish. One of the main characters is from northern England and speaks Scots Gaelic. I smiled when the Pictish king said things like freisin and duine.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on February 23, 2011)

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 620
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post


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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 204
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The Picts didn't speak Irish;cue loads of objections from supporters of Doric,Lallan Scots and strange theories about the Cruthin!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11440
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Níor labhair aon duine an uair úd Gaeilge an lae inniu. Ná Béarla. Is beag eolas atá againn faoi na Cruithne: níos lú ná faoi na Gaeil réamhchríostaí. Ana áiseach don dream ar mian leo a bhfealsúnacht "thraidisiúnta" féin a bhunús orthu.

Spéisiúil gur baineadh feidhm as Gaeilge - toisc go raibh sí ag na haisteoirí, is dócha.

(Message edited by aonghus on February 23, 2011)

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1329
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 05:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"Macdonald intended the film to be historically authentic, but as little is certain about the tribes that the Romans encountered—they were probably Celts, but some may have been Picts—he has made concessions. For example, the tribespeople spoke Gaelic, even though the language probably did not enter widespread use in the region until the 5th century AD;[6] Pictish is the more likely language to have been spoken at the time.[4] "It's the best we can do," Macdonald said. "All you can do is build on a few clues and trust your own instincts. That way, no one can tell you you were wrong."[6] Only 1% of Scots speak Gaelic, limiting the talent pool to just 60,000 people; by August 2009, several Gaelic-speaking boys had been auditioned without success[4] for the role of "the young tribal hero of the movie",[6] so Macdonald held open auditions in Glasgow for the role. The character is between nine and twelve years old and known as "Seal Boy".[4] The role was eventually won by a boy from Newbarnsley, Belfast, who had been educated in Irish Gaelic, not unlike Scottish Gaelic. The boy is Thomas Henry, aged 9, in his first film role, and he played a member of a tribe that the novel calls the "seal people"; Macdonald "has his own [interpretation]" of the tribe:[6]

They were a more indigenous folk than the Celts, who were from farther south ... They were probably small and dark, like the Inouit [sic], living off seals and dressed in sealskins. We are going to create a culture about which no one knows much, but which we will make as convincing as possible. We are basing it on clues gained from places like Skara Brae and the Tomb of the Eagles in Orkney, so that we will have them worshipping pagan symbols, like the seal and the eagle."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_(2011_film)

Ní foláir nó go n-iarr sé comhairle ar Mel Gibson i dtaobh chruinneas stairiúil an scannáin ;)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3843
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As far as I know there were two Pictish languages : a Brythonic one, and an isolated one, or at least we don't know if it is related to any other language.

But the Picts abandoned their languages gradually and probably started to use Gaelic instead (and maybe Scots in the south, but I don't know). But could you call them "Picts" once they have ceased to speak a Pictish language?... But anyway that happened much later than the 2nd century :-)

Anyway at that century, Modern English, Modern Irish, Modern Scottish Gaelic etc didn't exist. Freisin didn't exist, "duine" would be "doniios", "Gaeilg" would be "Goidelica" or something like that, and so on. And the names of the Celtic characters look "modern".
But we don't know much vocabulary in the languages of that time, anyway (not enough to write dialogues in them anyway!)...

(Message edited by Lughaidh on February 23, 2011)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Suaimhneas
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Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 560
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 10:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

But could you call them "Picts" once they have ceased to speak a Pictish language?



Are people who have ceased to speak Irish no longer Irish?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11443
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 10:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Sin ceist baolach, a Shuaimhnis. Leanfaidh míshuaimhneas é!

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 205
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well Suaimhneas,you have opened a can of worms.The ancestors of many/most Scottish people once spoke Pictish.Whatever that may mean;apparently a tag given to folk north of Hadrian's Wall by the Romans.Because some of them painted their faces.Piggot and Renwick ( and others) say they spoke 2 languages.1 Indo European ie like Celtic and 1 unknown to us. We only know the Picts from king lists and grave stones.It's a bit steep having them speak a tongue when we know that they did not have it at that time.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3844
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 04:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

But could you call them "Picts" once they have ceased to speak a Pictish language?



Are people who have ceased to speak Irish no longer Irish?



In the 2nd century, I guess you'd not be considered as a Pict if you've lost the Pictish language and speak another language instead.
Now it's different because there are nationalities, passports etc. Now it's more complicated to define what you are...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 07:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Probably at that time in a hinterland like Scotland your tribe was much more circumscribed by your language.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 621
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 08:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

So has anyone seen the movie? It's worth watching for the scenery alone IMHO.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 06:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A piece of worthless speculation: some DNA studies I read about suggest that the basic 'blood' so to speak, of the peoples of Britain and Ireland is Basque and that various waves of Indo-European invaders across the sea (the Basque-types walked)have added to that. It makes me wonder if Pictish 2 isn't something more closely related to Basque than anything else extant.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3845
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 07:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Pictish 2 was probably pre-Indo-European. Now we don't have enough inscriptions to say if it is related to any other language.
Btw, the Basque country is quite far from Scotland, so it isn't sure that a Bascoid (?) language was spoken both in the Basque country and in Scotland. I think there was a great linguistic variety in Europe in the pre-Indo-European times, because there were so many tribes, that didn't move much (not as much as in the Iron Age and later anyway).
I hope we will know more about all that one day :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11444
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 08:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Conas? Níl aon fhianaise do na teangacha, an bhfuil? An bhfuil tú ag dúil le sórt Cloch Rosetta a aimsiú i dtuaisceart na hEorpa?

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 08:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It's far from sure that a Bascoid (to borrow your coinage) language was spoken in Scotland. However, I wouldn't put much store by the distance between the present-day Basque territory and Scotland. As the ice retreated northward, the surviving Basques were in the best position to take advantage of that and walk the land bridges between the continent and Britain, and Scotland and Ireland.

Relying on my memory of some maps I saw years ago, the present Basque territory is only a fraction of what it used to be in any case.

What evidence is there for great linguistic variety in pre-Indo-European Europe? This is new to me.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 1061
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 11:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Agus bhí na hInd-Eorpaigh go maith i gceann cogaidh. Chuireadh siad a naimhde faoi chois agus chloíodh treibh Ind-Eorpach eile iadsan, go héigríoch. Siúd an tuairisc ar an Eoraip. Bheinn ag deánamh bhfuil cuid mhór den fhianaise caillte.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3846
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 06:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Conas? Níl aon fhianaise do na teangacha, an bhfuil? An bhfuil tú ag dúil le sórt Cloch Rosetta a aimsiú i dtuaisceart na hEorpa?



Nach mbeadh sé deas?
Nó inneall inteacht le ghabháil ar aist san am atá caite ;-)

quote:

What evidence is there for great linguistic variety in pre-Indo-European Europe? This is new to me.



No evidence, but see the variety we have now ; at a time where it was much more difficult to move (less roads, less vehicles, more woods), I think it's quite obvious that there was a great linguistic variety throughout Europe...

quote:

Agus bhí na hInd-Eorpaigh go maith i gceann cogaidh.



Sin an cheist mhór : cad é a thaistil de réir a chéile i dtreo an iarthair : pobal gabhálaithe darbh ainm "Ind-Eorpaigh", nó teangthacha agus cultúir?
Amannaí cha bhíonn mórán daoiní do dhíth le teangaidh a thabhairt isteach i dtír "úr" : amhanc ar Mheiriceá Theas, ar Albain, ar Éirinn, ar an Fhrainc srl. Char athraigh na pobail áitiúla go hiomlán, ach tugadh teangthacha "úra" agus anois labhrann chóir a bheith achan nduine iad ins na tíorthaí sin...
Maidir leis na hInd-Eorpaigh, níl's againn cad é a tharlaigh go beacht ach síleann eolaithe áiríd gurb iad na teangthacha agus na cultúir Ind-Eorpacha a spréigh fríd an Eoraip, gan mórán "gabhálaithe Ind-Eorpacha" a' teacht ann. Agus gur mhair na pobail áitiúla a bheag nó a mhór mar a bhí siad roimhe sin.
Cibith cha dtig linn ach hipitéiseannaí a dhéanamh fán am adaí...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11446
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 01:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is é mo thuiscint go bhfuil na seandálaithe den tuairim gur cultúr seachas pobal a scaip; agus seans scoth-aicme trodaithe.

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 31
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 06:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"No evidence, but see the variety we have now ; at a time where it was much more difficult to move (less roads, less vehicles, more woods), I think it's quite obvious that there was a great linguistic variety throughout Europe... "

I can see the sense in that. It's a reasonable supposition. It strikes me, though, that since the DNA evidence is pointing at a Basque people then a language related to Basque is what we might expect from the aboriginal post-glacial inhabitants of Britain and Ireland. So the variety we might suppose existed would be a variety within a Basque family in much the same way as we have variety within the Indo-European family today (And if we mean 2011, by today, quite a few other language families, too.).

It also occurs to me that that is likely to be the case unless physical evidence of another pre-Indo-European people is found on the same turf. After all, DNA research also suggests that modern-day Icelandics are far more Irish by genetic composition than Scandinavian - and not a word of Gaelic between them!

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11450
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 07:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

We have evidence from History and literature that would have led us to expect that genetic finding for Iceland. (they stole Irish women)

But going further back we have less data.

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Obuadhaigh
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Username: Obuadhaigh

Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 09:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"But going further back we have less data."

Statement of fact. Agreed.

Sean

- living with the shame of being the first non-native speaker in his family...

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Séamas_Ó_neachtain
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Username: Séamas_Ó_neachtain

Post Number: 955
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 10:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá an Ghaeilge ann réasúnta maith. Rinneadh a lán de san Ungáir, agus b'fhéidir leo Magyar a labhairt, agus ní bheadh aon fhios ag an móramh. Ach roghnaigh siad teagna Cheilteach (nua-aimseartha), agus is breá sin, dar liomsa. Bhí an-áthas orm nuair a chonac mé é go raibh níos mó Gaeilge sa scannán seo ná in aon cheann nach raibh as Gaeilge ar fad dá bhfaca mé riamh. Agus is maith an scannán é, freisin, i mo thuairim.

Good movie, lots of Irish, and that's very cool.

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 716
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 02:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Are people who have ceased to speak Irish no longer Irish?

If we were prepared to be brutally honest about it we would admit that there are only about 100,000 Irish people left in Ireland. The rest of us who are second-generation Galltacht (or even worse!) can at best describe ourselves as Irish-Hibernian. Agreed? ;-)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.



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