A chairde,

When thanking a group of people for their assistance in something, would it be "as bhur gcabhair"? Do I need a "cuid/gcuid" in there?

GRMA

Go raibh (míle)/(céad míle) maith agaibh as bhur gcabhair. [Ba mhór an cúnamh dom/dúinn an chabhair a thug sibh.]

I don't know the grammar for "cuid" but it used to be used in connection with such things as food, bia, money, airgead (mo chuid airgid) gruaig (mo chuid gruaige), Gaeilge (ár gcuid Gaeilge) etc

I had the impression "cuid" was only used with things held or shared in common.

That's what confused me, I think; they each had a part in the accomplishment. Is cuid is used only for possessions?

13.8 Is minic an focal cuid idir an aidiacht shealbhach agus a hainmfhocal nuair atá teibíocht
nó iolra nó ábhar do-áirimh i gceist: a cuid eolais; a cuid leabhar; mo chuid gruaige (siúcra). (GGBC)

ba í an ardmháistreás féin a chuir an scrúdú orainn (ní duine dá cuid cúntóirí a rinne é) (13.43)

I would be reluctant to say that "cuid" could not be used with "cabhair" in the phrase quoted above without more evidence of usage. I don't believe that "cuid" is only used with things held or shared in common.

Go raibh maith agaibh as an aiseolas. My main concern was that I was omitting something that may have been necessary. If if doesn't need to be there I'll leave delving into "cuid" usage for some other time.

If I may ask, when using a noun to express a feeling (X orm) how would you intensify it? For example, "tá tuirse orm" means I am tired; how would you express being "very" tired? The "an-" prefix is for adjectives, correct? So "tá tuirse mór orm"? Or would it be "tá mé an-tuirseacht"?

My apologies if these questions seem simple. I haven't FGB at work.

GRMA

Good q Driftwood, hope to learn more about this..

For my part I don't think an- is used very often with tuirse as an intensifier but you'd often see it with other nouns in this context like as in 'tá an-áthas orm'.

Couple of other ways you can say it keeping with the 'tá tuirse orm' are 'Tá tuirse thar an gcoitiantacht orm', or 'tá tuirse an domhain orm'. Or 'm'anam go bhfuil tuirse orm'! There are loads more on that course.

'Tá mé maraithe tuirseach' is popular in Conamara. Then you have spíonta, tugtha, tuirseach traochta which all emphasise how 'very' tired you are.

"Táim tuirseach traochta" is what I'd say.

But you could say "Tá an-tuirse orm" or "Táim an-tuirseach"

(I'd normally use "ana" as an intensifier)

quote:

If I may ask, when using a noun to express a feeling (X orm) how would you intensify it? For example, "tá tuirse orm" means I am tired; how would you express being "very" tired? The "an-" prefix is for adjectives, correct? So "tá tuirse mór orm"? Or would it be "tá mé an-tuirseacht"?

Tá an-thuirse orm/Táim an-thuirseach. You can put an- before virtually any noun or adjective as an intensifier: Tá an-Ghaelainn aige, bíonn sé an-chiotrúnta timpeall na mban, bhí an-chuileachta sa phub againn aréir, etc. Note that "tuirse" is an abstract noun ending in a vowel most of which are feminine, as is "tuirse". So, you would need to lenite the initial consonant of a following adjective: tuirse mhór.

Note that an- is pronounced "ana" in Munster before a consonant but "an" (normally) before a vowel. In Connachta and Ulster it is always pronounced "an". Note also that in Munster any word beginning with t or d or s must be lenited after an- but that these letters are never lenited in Connachta and Ulster.

Sinéad has given you some ways of saying "exhausted". Here are some other expressions:

Táim coirthe/cortha/tnáite/féachta = exhausted
Bhí mo theanga amuigh le saothar = totally knackered, "my tongue was hanging out with the exertion" (after running, physical exercise)
bhí saothar orm; I was out of breath, gasping for breath

Táim caite amach/sáraithe amach is another way of saying "I'm exhausted".

what about 'i ndeireadh an anama' for exausted? I came across that in TYI, Dillon

I love the imagery of Irish: "fead" means "a whistle" i.e. the sound not the instrument. "Táim i ndeireadh na feide" means, literally, "I'm in the end of the whistle" which I take to mean "like the end of a whistling sound fizzling out, diminishing for lack of breath" i.e. exhausted / down on me uppers / at my wit's end / at the end of my tether etc depending on context.

"i ndeireadh an anama" appears old-fashioned to me. Old people used say "Well, upon my soul, ..." in English and "Dar m'anam ... " in Irish. Do they still? Who does? Religious? What do young people in the Gaeltacht say?

I'm exhausted? Táim spíonta sáraithe.

Carmanach and Aonghus: Have ye heard native speakers saying 'Tá an-tuirse orm'? My feeling on this is that they don't (or rarely?)put an- as an intensifier with tuirse and use the other expressions we have mentioned instead.

It's just my feeling from what I have picked up so far but honestly I myself cannot remember hearing/reading a native speaker saying 'tá an-tuirse orm'.
Might it be in Munster they use this?

(Message edited by sineadw on February 08, 2011)

Go raibh míle maith agaibh! You have all given me much food for thought and study. I wouldn't have thought you could use "an-" for so many words. Time to start reading more, rather than simply studying. Thank you also for the dialectal difference tips. It is difficult to find anything other than basic conversation specific to Munster. Yes, Jeaicín, it is indeed a beautiful language. I am rather envious of people like Aonghus who grew up with it. So much easier to learn it that way, grammar by osmosis!

quote:

Carmanach and Aonghus: Have ye heard native speakers saying 'Tá an-tuirse orm'? My feeling on this is that they don't (or rarely?)put an- as an intensifier with tuirse and use the other expressions we have mentioned instead.

An- as an intensifier can be put before virtually any noun or adjective as I've already stated above. Tuirse is no different. Tá an-thuirse orm/táim an-thuirseach - both are in use in everyday speech.

quote:

It's just my feeling from what I have picked up so far but honestly I myself cannot remember hearing/reading a native speaker saying 'tá an-tuirse orm'.
Might it be in Munster they use this?

There are many words and expressions I've yet to hear or read but my not knowing of them tells us nothing of whether native Gaeltacht speakers know them or use them. It may be Munster usage but I note the following in the index of Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: An Deilbhíocht:

an-airde, great height
an-áit, very good place
an-chainnteóir, a very good talker
an-dochtúir, a very good doctor
an-jab, very good job
an-mhada, very good dog
an-obair, very good work
an-oidhche, very good night
an-tabhairt síos, very good account
an-tsaighdiúir, very good soldier

de Bhaldraithe (431) says nothing of such usage being confined to certain nouns.

Such usage is very common in Corca Dhuibhne.

Quote Carmanach: "There are many words and expressions I've yet to hear or read but my not knowing of them tells us nothing of whether native Gaeltacht speakers know them or use them. It may be Munster usage but I note the following in the index of Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: An Deilbhíocht:

an-airde, great height
an-áit, very good place
an-chainnteóir, a very good talker
an-dochtúir, a very good doctor
an-jab, very good job
an-mhada, very good dog
an-obair, very good work
an-oidhche, very good night
an-tabhairt síos, very good account
an-tsaighdiúir, very good soldier

de Bhaldraithe (431) says nothing of such usage being confined to certain nouns.

Such usage is very common in Corca Dhuibhne."


Carmanach I wasn't wondering if an- used as an intensifier before nouns is a Munster thing, I was wondering more if you or Aonghus would know from your experience if an- with tuirse specifically (ana thuirse) is used by native speakers in Munster as in context of Driftwood's sentence: 'tá an-tuirse orm'.

An- as an intensifier is common with nouns in general so I'm not questioning that at all. It's common to all the dialects from what I know. I'm just saying that oddly I don't seem to be hearing an- used with tuirse. (And I listen to Conamara Irish).

I just checked the corpas there for 'an-tuirse' and there are hardly any examples.

quote:

Carmanach I wasn't wondering if an- used as an intensifier before nouns is a Munster thing, I was wondering more if you or Aonghus would know from your experience if an- with tuirse specifically (ana thuirse) is used by native speakers in Munster as in context of Driftwood's sentence: 'tá an-tuirse orm'.

Yes, I have heard it and a colleague of mine who is an expert on CD Irish has confirmed that people do say it.

quote:

I'm just saying that oddly I don't seem to be hearing an- used with tuirse. (And I listen to Conamara Irish).

And I listen to Corca Dhuibhne Irish but my not having heard of a particular word or expression does not mean that it is not used or recognised by native speakers. I've no idea what the norm is in Conamara or Cois Fhairrge.

Which corpus did you check? The RIA one?

Corpas.focloir.ie. Think it's the Foras na Gaeilge one.

And yes Carmanach your or my not having heard of a word or expression certainly does not mean it doesn't exist or isn't being used by native speakers!! (Well I for one don't think along those lines and you have just said you don't either :)) But don't you ever start with your gut instinct and use that to find out more about something? Gut feelings and a sense of what does or doesn't sound right is extremely important when getting to know a language.

But fair enough if an-tuirse is common in CD.

quote:

And yes Carmanach your or my not having heard of a word or expression certainly does not mean it doesn't exist or isn't being used by native speakers!! (Well I for one don't think along those lines and you have just said you don't either :))

Fair enough.

quote:

But don't you ever start with your gut instinct and use that to find out more about something? Gut feelings and a sense of what does or doesn't sound right is extremely important when getting to know a language.

True - to a certain extent. The problem is that you use your gut to digest chicken tikka masala, brown sauce and chocolate kimberlies - not for learning languages. Gut instincts are nothing if they're not backed up with evidence of native speaker usage. As a learner I find that the language of native speakers occasionally throws up major surprises that challenge received wisdom. I've had to swallow my own pride over the years and admit that some things really are native to the language and not anglicisms or errors invented by L2 speakers. Being a learner requires a large dose of humility.

But you see gut instincts are actually developed as a result of learning from native speakers so you develop your ear as you go on. It's not the same thing as thinking something 'should' be a certain way.

quote:

But you see gut instincts are actually developed as a result of learning from native speakers so you develop your ear as you go on. It's not the same thing as thinking something 'should' be a certain way.

Yes, you do develop your ear and become more attuned to such things but many learners make assumptions about things based on the flimsiest of evidence or reasoning - or no evidence or reasoning at all. Those people are doing exactly that - thinking that something 'should' be a certain way. I've seen people on here and other online fora who have latched on to some half-baked idea and refuse to let it go, like a dog with a new bone. Gut instincts are nothing without evidence which goes for a lot of things in life. A scientific approach to language is what is required. Another tactic I've seen is when you show someone evidence that contradicts their pet assumptions and instead of just saying "Fair enough. You're right. Thanks for putting me right" they deny having ever said anything to the contrary!

Carmanach what are you like. You're beginning to remind me of the "facts facts and nothing but the facts!" man in Hard Times! :)
You don't need a wholly scientific approach any more than you do one founded on assumptions or gut feelings alone.

Ní lia duine ná tuairim.

quote:

Carmanach what are you like. You're beginning to remind me of the "facts facts and nothing but the facts!" man in Hard Times! :)
You don't need a wholly scientific approach any more than you do one founded on assumptions or gut feelings alone.

Right so, I'm off home this very minute to burn all my books and notes in the back yard. No need for all that research nonsense anymore, I'll just use my "gut" from now on. Gotta question? No problemo, the old gut'll answer that one! Yes sirree! Facts? Facts schmacts I say!! I bet my good ol' lower colon'll answer that question of yours in two seconds flat! No kiddin' mister!

I gcead do Sinéad dúirt sí

quote:

"You don't need a wholly scientific approach any more than you do one founded on assumptions or gut feelings alone"

Ní aontaím léi áfach. Má tá fianaise ar fáil, is mithid é chuir san áireamh. Ní ionann sin agus pairilis a theacht ar do chuid cainte cionn is nach bhfuil fasach ar fáil duit don rud is mian leat a rá.

You had said 'a scientific approach is what is required' so I thought I'd give my point of view in that there is room for a bit of the other too..
Respect your opinion of course and as Aonghus says ní lia duine ná tuairim and I will defend to my death your right to that opinion :D

okay time to sign off for now :) tugaigí aire.

quote:

ní lia duine ná tuairim and I will defend to my death your right to that opinion :D

Steady on there, love. Don't get yourself killed on my account! :)

I was quoting Voltaire and no since you weren't prepared to do time for me then no I'll pass on that :)