Just wondering if anyone knows if 'geansaí' was the word that people in Árainn would have used for their style of knitted jumper (as well as for all other jumpers?).

Geansaí Árannach is in focal.ie. Sounds modern though as in how we refer to it now as an 'aran jumper' but they'd hardly have called it that themselves at the time it came in.
Maybe geansaí was it, or geansaí mór?

"gansey" was used in Dublin in the early 1900s, according to my father
... I think I read that it comes from "guernsey"? ... maybe the fishermen in the Channel Islands knitted them?

eadaoin

Ah so maybe the aran jumper was the original 'geansaí' then?

I thought that maybe they'd have had a special name for it to differentiate the aran style of knit from plainer knits. Like as in say 'seáilín craobhach'.. something just to show it had a different pattern/weight. But geansaí probably was that word!

Cool, thanks Éadaoin.

Geansaí in Irish, Jersey in English, as in a football jersey. I wonder why the ~ach with Árainn? I'd think "Geansaí Árann" (a/the jersey of Aran) would be enough. I do be [sic] suspicious of new adjectives. Irish prefers nouns. Irish says "tá tuirse orm" in preference to "táim tuirseach".

Gansey was common in Dublin when I was a child in the 1960s

'Gansey' from the Channel Islands? Now that's interesting given that the synonymous 'jersey' is also in the Channel Islands.

What about "báinín"? Or is that just for a homespun jacket?

"Árannach" - as a noun at least - does indeed exist and is not a modern invention. "Cléireach" is used for someone from Clear Island and "Blascaodach" for a Blasket islander.

The Collins English Dictionary says that "gansey" comes from Guernsey.

quote:

Irish prefers nouns. Irish says "tá tuirse orm" in preference to "táim tuirseach".

táimid tuirseach den gciúnas nádúrtha (AC:48)
fuílleach na síofraí a tugtaí ar a leithéidí, leanaí a d'fhuadaigh na síofraí ach gur éirigh an slua sí tuirseach díobh agus gur shéideadar uathu iad (AC:64)
/tәr'∫ax/, (GCD:480)

The first two examples are from Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil of Clear Island, a very fine speaker of Irish. The third from Corca Dhuibhne to show that it is also used there. I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that Irish prefers nouns in all circumstances where there might be a choice.

(Message edited by carmanach on February 05, 2011)

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What about "báinín"? Or is that just for a homespun jacket?

I understood that to mean homespun cloth in general.

I couldn't find Geansaí in Dinneen, and as I understand it the jerseys are fairly recent.

http://www.inismeain.ie/ga/knitting/products.html

"Sna pictiúir seo tá ár bpatrún Árannach le feiceáil."

"What about "báinín"? Or is that just for a homespun jacket? "

- I think that was called "bréidín". The jacket, waistjacket, and trousers were made from a special thick weave fabric. Like the jumpers it was make from natural colour of the wool- báinín.

I remember when I was young seeing some of the old people wearing a suit of it.

"glas na gcaorach" is also used for undyed homespun.

Funny enough the native who gave me and my family a pony ride around Inis Mór said that the sweaters branded you as a tourist. He asked me to look around and see if I saw anyone wearing them. I don't know if he was giving me a hard time because I was fully a tourist that day, but it seemed to be true. He also repeated the story that the sweater was used to identify dead fishers. I didn't catch the Irish for it.

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Irish prefers nouns. Irish says "tá tuirse orm" in preference to "táim tuirseach".

My understanding is there is a choice between the two.

The "dead fisherman" story is a myth according to Wikipedia: -

It is sometimes said that each fisherman (or his family) had a sweater with a unique design, so that if he drowned and was found, maybe weeks later, on the beach, his body could be identified. This misconception may have originated with J.M. Synge's 1904 play Riders to the Sea, in which the body of a dead fisherman is identified by the hand-knitted stitches on one of his garments. However, even in the play, there is no reference to any decorative or Aran-type pattern.

The garment referred to is a plain stocking and it is identified by the number of stitches, the quote being "it's the second one of the third pair I knitted, and I put up three score stitches, and I dropped four of them". There is no record of any such event ever having taken place, nor is there any evidence to support there being a systematic tradition of family patterns.

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My understanding is there is a choice between the two.

Yes, Seánw, there is. I agree but people thinking in English and translating from English will only go for the latter: Táim tuirseach, since they would never say "there is tiredness upon me" in English. We need constant reminding that traditional Irish did not follow English. Even on Raidiú na Gaeltachta you will hear occasional calques or loan translations from English. Being bilingual native Irish speakers are very good at calques from English. J.M.Synge showed how English might be if it followed Irish. Modern Irish, however, and sadly, falls into many of the pitfalls, including this one, making up adjectives in Irish where a noun + prepositional pronoun or a noun in the genitive would be better. Not to worry however. Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla dá fheabhas! Coinnímis orainn ag foghlaim.

The price is prohibitive anyhow for the locals.
Most of them would buy their clothes now in department stores in Galway City. Where you can buy a nice jumper for €9.99 in Dunnes instead of the €100 or so of the hand-knitted báinín geansaí.
The days of people knitting their own clothes are mostly gone.

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Modern Irish, however, and sadly, falls into many of the pitfalls, including this one, making up adjectives in Irish where a noun + prepositional pronoun or a noun in the genitive would be better.

Can you provide us with some evidence as to "tuirseach" being "made up", please?

Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil uses "táim tuirseach" and Diarmuid Ó Sé also mentions tuirseach and bunthuirseach. Dinneen mentions the following:

de mholadh Dé ná bí tuirseach
táim tuirseach i ndiaidh na siubhlóide sin

Ó Dónaill has these:

Ní bheifeá tuirseach ag éisteacht leis
Bheifeá tuirseach de do shaol acu

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí has the following:

tá sibh tuirseach
cá hiontas duit bheith tuirseach
deir sé go bhfuil sé tuirseach
cé go bhfuil sé tuirseach tá sé ag obair
tá sé ceart go leor ach go bhfuil sé tuirseach
ní haon ionadh é sin agus go bhfuil sé tuirseach
is mé nach mbíonn tuirseach
d'ainneoin go raibh sé tuirseach
má tá tú tuirseach féin b'fhéidir go dtabharfá isteach cliabh móna
táimid tuirseach di
Tá sí seo tuirseach
dúirt A le B go raibh an ghirseach tuirseach

Now can we put all this nonsense about such adjectival forms being anglicisms to bed, please?

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Can you provide us with some evidence as to "tuirseach" being "made up", please?

Obviously I can't but that is not the point and I did not say that. At least, I did not intend to say or suggest that. I meant to say that there are other ways in Irish such as "tá tuirse orm" of expressing ideas that require an adjective in English. What triggered my initial comment was the reference above to "GeansaI Árannach" which prompted me to think of "Geansaí Árann." Another that catches my eye occasionally is the Irish for "native speaker". Sometimes one sees the adjective used, "cainteoir dúchasach", where I would think "cainteoir dúchais" would be more common. www.focal.ie has lists of new adjectives as has de Bhaldraithe "fáslaigh ná faca fós an cúig chéad bliain."

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Now can we put all this nonsense about such adjectival forms being anglicisms to bed, please?

It is not nonsense to draw attention to alternative ways of expressing the same or similar ideas, "tá tuirse orm" or "táim tuirseach."

quote:

Obviously I can't but that is not the point and I did not say that. At least, I did not intend to say or suggest that. I meant to say that there are other ways in Irish such as "tá tuirse orm" of expressing ideas that require an adjective in English.

I beg to differ. That is very much the point. I don't believe in going on vague "hunches" about what is right and wrong in the language but on evidence from good native speakers. There are indeed other ways of expressing such concepts apart from using adjectival forms but the following comment of your own would appear to suggest the contrary, that adjectival forms are in some way not native to the language:

quote:

Irish says "tá tuirse orm" in preference to "táim tuirseach".

You then made the following comment which would appear - on the surface at least - to be due to your own supposition:

quote:

Modern Irish, however, and sadly, falls into many of the pitfalls, including this one, making up adjectives in Irish where a noun + prepositional pronoun or a noun in the genitive would be better.

Now I cannot see how creating adjectives from nouns and using them with the substantive verb rather than using a prepositional phrase with the substantive is somehow less Irish.

quote:

Another that catches my eye occasionally is the Irish for "native speaker". Sometimes one sees the adjective used, "cainteoir dúchasach", where I would think "cainteoir dúchais" would be more common.

"Cainteoir dúchais" and "cainteoir dúchaiseach" are both in use by good Gaeltacht speakers and are equally correct. Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil uses "dúchaiseach" as an adjective in a number of phrases.

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It is not nonsense to draw attention to alternative ways of expressing the same or similar ideas, "tá tuirse orm" or "táim tuirseach."

I quote once more, if I may, your original comment:

quote:

Irish says "tá tuirse orm" in preference to "táim tuirseach".

You then failed to elaborate on exactly why "táim tuirseach" should be proscribed and said that "obviously I can't but that is not the point".