Anyone know what Ajax from the Iliad would be called in Irish? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_%28mythology%29)

There's a short Vicipéid article in Irish on the Iliad here: http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad

Thanks.

I have the Irish version of the Aeneid, published by the Irish Texts Society in the early 20th Century. I believe Ajax is mentioned in there as well. I'll look it up next chance I get.

There is by definition no Irish form of the name Ajax. It is not an Irish name. And unlike, eg Bible names, where the Bible has a long history of translation into Irish, and so established versions of the more famous Biblical names exist, the Iliad has had little impact on the culture of Irish-speaking Ireland. At a guess, the number of native speakers who have read the Iliad in Irish is zero.

The nearest thing would be to ask "what forms have been used in translations of the Iliad" - but they would be just ad hoc forms made up by the person on the spot - not "the Irish for Ajax", as if someone is compiling tablets of stone on a cloud with the Irish forms of all names ever used anywhere. What's the Irish for Chiang Kai-shek, by the way?

The famous 1844 translation of the first 7 books of the Iliad by Archibishop John McHale (Seághan Mac Éil) from Co. Mayo is online at http://www.archive.org/details/tiliadairchogadh00home Apparently he did the first 8 books of the Iliad eventually, but the book scanned in for archive.org only contains 7 books.

It is a parallel Greek - Irish translation on opposing pages. You will see on page 21 that Ajax is Aiach in his translation. This is not THE Irish for Ajax - which doesn't exist - just what John McHale made up on the spot for his translation.

Now John McHale's translation was reissued in 1981 - see http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000091681 - but I have no evidence of whether his full dialectal forms were kept or whether changes were made willy-nilly. But the National Library of Ireland has no other version of the Iliad in Irish.

Unfortunately, the Irish Æneid omits the single occurrence of the name "Ajax" in the Æneid...Æneas recounts the episode to Dido without naming him specifically.

@ Corkirish - I don't know about that...there are plenty of gaelicized renditions of Greek names in the text I was searching, which was part of the Book of Ballymote and was written in the 1390s.

At what point is a foreign name in the same category as a Biblical gaelicization? Why are the names in those particular ancient Greek and Hebrew texts acceptable where those used in other texts are not?

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, but I've long felt there was an arbitrariness in such judgements.

Antaine, did I say there were no Gaelic renditions of Greek names? Show me where I said that.

I pointed out a Gaelic rendition of Ajax, did I not?

A book in the 1390s? Now I am going to ask you for direct evidence that this book is in print today and read in the Gaeltacht. Where is your evidence?


All conversations on Daltaí proceed at cross-purposes it seems.

"At what point is a foreign name in the same category as a Biblical gaelicization?" Antaine, you did not read my post, did you? I said the Iliad has had little impact on the culture of Irish-speaking Ireland.

I'm not going to bother explaining further - as you didn't read my post above.

quote:

I said the Iliad has had little impact on the culture of Irish-speaking Ireland.

Not sure that is true. Irish poetry contains rich veins of classical allusion as well as Biblical.

John McHale, Archbishop of Tuam, is an interesting character. He translated a large chunk of the Iliad, but also did the gospels and heptateuch I believe. It was he who encouraged PUL at Maynooth to take interest in Ireland's literary heritage. The tale is told as follows in Mo Sgéal Féin:

quote:

Nuair a bhí deire na bliana ag teacht do ceapadh
aiste dhúinn go léir le sgrí' agus bhí duais aonair
le fághail ag an t-é do sgríobhfadh an aiste ab fhearr.
Sidé an rud ar a raibh orainn an aiste do sgrí' .i.
The Elizabethan Age of English Literature.

Tháinig deire na bliana. Chuamair go léir isteach
sa halla mór. Bhí seisear nó mórsheisear Easbog
ar an árdán thuas. Do tugadh dómh-sa an duais aonair.
Bhí orm raint de'n aiste do léigheadh i láthair na
n-Easbog.

Is cuimhin liom, i dtosach na sgríbhinne, gur thráchtas
ar léighean na Gréige agus gur mholas é; gur thráchtas
ar léighean na Rómha agus gur mholas é; gur thrachtas
ar na léigheanaibh eile ar fuaid na h-Euróipe, an
Fhrainncis agus an Almáinnis agus an Spáinnis, na
saighseana leighinn sin a shíolraidh ó'n nGréigis agus
ó'n Laidin, agus do mholas iad. Ansan do thráchtas
ar léighean agus ar úghdaraibh Shasana i n-aimsir
Elisabet, agus do mholas idir léighean agus úghdair.
Níor dheacair dom iad do mholadh. Bhí eólus maith
agam ar a lán acu. Bhíodar agam sa bhaile. Thug
mo mháthair léi a-dtuaidh ó'n Mullach Ruadh iad, beann-
acht Dé le n-a h-anam!

Siné díreach an pháirt de'n sgríbhinn a marcáladh
dom le léigheadh os cómhair na n-Easbog. Do léigheas
amach é go h-árd agus go neamhsgáthmhar.

Bhí duine des na h-Easbogaibh 'n-a shuidhe thuas i lár
baill, díreach ar m' aghaidh amach. Nuair a stadas
d'eirigh sé 'n-a sheasamh agus d'fhéach sé idir an dá shúil
orm.

Dheinis an méid sin go maith, a bhuachaill, ar
seisean. "Thugais do chuaird mór-thímpal ortha go léir.
Do mholais léighean na Gréige. Do mholais léighean
na Rómha. Do mholais léighean na Frainnce agus
léighean na Spáinne agus léighean na h-Almáinne.
Ansan do mholais go h-árd léighean Shasana. Agus
féach, oiread agus aon fhocal amháin amach as do bhéal
ní dúbhraís i dtaobh léighinn na h-Éirean."

Dúbhairt sé a lán eile ansan 'á chur ar mo shúilibh
dom go raibh dearmhad mór déanta agam, mar go
raibh léighean na h-Éirean níb' fhearr agus níob' uaisle
agus níba shine 'ná aon léighean des na léigheanaibh
eile sin a dh'ainimnigheas.

Bhíomair araon ag féachaint go daingean agus go
dlúth agus go díreach idir an dá shúil ar a chéile an
fhaid a bhí sé ag caint.

Seághan mac Éil, Árd-easbog Thuama, isé do chas
an t-asachán san liom-sa an lá san, i gColáisde Mhaighe
Nuadhat, os cómhair na n-Easbog eile a bhí ann, agus
os cómhair na n-uachtarán, agus os cómhair na gcoláis-
teánach go léir, agus admhuighim ó chroídhe gur bhain sé
an mhóráil díom i gceart. D' athruigh m' aigne láith-
reach. D'imthigh an mhór-uraim a bhí tagaithe agam do'n
Bhéarla, agus do las airís am' chroídhe an meas a bhí
agam riamh roimis sin ar an nGaeluinn. Do chromas
airís ar na leabhraibh Gaeluinne sa leabharlann do
léigeadh agus do sgrúdadh, agus ar na blúiríní beaga
filidheachta do thaithneadh liom do chur síos am' leabhar
sgríbhinne. Nuair a thagainn abhaile ar laethantaibh
saoire bhínn ag gluaiseacht anso agus ansúd ar fuid
na cómharsanachta ag bailiughadh amhrán agus seana
chainteana Gaeluinne ó sheandaoine go mbíodh a
leithéidí acu.

@ Corkirish

You said, "There is by definition no Irish form of the name Ajax."

The Imeachta Aeniasa was an Irish version of the tale (not a translation into Irish) dating from about that period. It was published with parallel English translation by the Irish Texts Society in 1907. That's the version I have, but all their old stuff can still be ordered new (with the exception of the Táin from 1969, which is the only edition that is only available to members...I joined just to get it!). They even recently published a version of it combined with another text
http://www.amazon.com/Translations-Classical-Literature-Imtheachta-Subsidiary/dp /1870166752/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296136246&sr=1-6

Granted, the classical work did not have quite the same impact as the Bible, but it seems that a classical education was far more common than one would suppose, given the state of official education in Ireland.

"Latin and Greek were taught to ragged hunted ones under shelter of the hedges  whence these teachers were knows as "hedge schoolmasters."  A knowledge of Latin was a frequent enough accomplishment among poor Irish mountaineers in the seventeenth century  and was spoken by many of them on special occasions. And it is authoritatively boasted that cows were bought and sold in Greek, in mountain market-places of Kerry."
-McManus, The Story of the Irish Race.

The influence can also be seen in the modern works of Friel as well as other writers (I'm thinking about "The Whereabouts of Aneas McNulty"...been many years since I read it, but I recall it being a sort of retelling of the Aeneid in modern times). For centuries, I don't think it's unfair to argue, that Homer and Vergil were just as well known throughout Irish-speaking Ireland (and indeed most of Europe) as the Bible stories. Their popularity seems to have only dropped off since the 1920s or 30s

"Ajax" is itself "the" English form of the name (something about which no similar objection has been raised). Are you saying that the Iliad was more influential in English culture than in Irish? If so, I would dispute that.

I think we have to weigh how much a particular name was common enough to people for it to stick. In terms of transliteration, there is great freedom in a word that is not common or there is not a common method of transliterating it. If there is a name that is already common, then there is more risk in going out and coining your own. Also keep in mind that transliteration is not finding the Irish name, it is simply switching over the word to the Roman letters. Sure you can take this a further step and hibernicize the name. I would use a version used in previous translations unless there was a very good reason to switch it, like people use a different name now, it was based on false data, and many other conceivable reasons. As it stands, Ajax is from Latin. The Greek is Aias. You can, of course, leave it as Ajax!