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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (January-February) » Archive through January 22, 2011 » Foclóirín « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 731
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 04:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As people here may know, I am converting the footnotes in Niamh into a foclóirín at the back. I have done the first 15 chapters, one-quarter of the book, and the Foclóirín is 11 pages long. I think it is quite a good basic guide to some key differences in vocabulary in Cork Irish, and so I formatted it as a PDF for people to download at www.corkirish.com/audio/focloirin.pdf

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11210
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 04:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Bullaí fir!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3802
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Nice. Why did you write "eirím"? Since there's a diphthong I would have spelt it "eighrím".

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 733
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh, I am trying to fit in with the Muskerry house style. The spelling eighrím would be simply made up, however close to the pronunciation. In fact, it would be a spelling mistake to write eighrím.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3803
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Why? I already saw it written like that though!

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 736
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh, je crua ke ty népèl pa le fransé com sa!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3805
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Once again I already saw eighrím, written like that though. Not written by a learner.
Anyway, I don't understand why you write everything phonetically in your foclóirín but you say it's not good to write "eighrím" because it's too phonetic.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11216
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Ambasa: “indeed”, or ambaiste in Standardised Irish. Literally “by my hands”. Pronounced /əm'bɑsə/.



Are you sure of the literal meaning?

I thought this was "By my baptism"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11217
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

ambaiste [intriacht]
dar mo bhaiste.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11218
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

But I see Dineen has "Ambasa" by my hands;

I believe these are two different interjections. I don't have Ó Dónaill to hand to see whether Ambasa is listed.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1123
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Ambasa: “indeed”, or ambaiste in Standardised Irish. Literally “by my hands”. Pronounced /əm'bɑsə/.



Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic are all corruptions of "ar mo baisteadh", literally "upon my baptism". Is it not uncommon in Munster for b, p and m to resist lenition following mo: bhuaileas isteach im póca é.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11221
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

An bhfuil tú ag rá go raibh Ó Duinnín mícheart? Thug seisean "On my hands" mar Béarla ar ambasa.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11223
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Agus nach mbeadh "By my baptism" níos cruinne: cf "ar mo leabhar bhreac" 7rl: Tá "Mionnaím ar mo X" intuigthe anseo, sílim.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1126
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

An bhfuil tú ag rá go raibh Ó Duinnín mícheart? Thug seisean "On my hands" mar Béarla ar ambasa.



Is dóigh liom é. Ag cuimhneamh ar "ar mo basa" a bhí sé. Féach gur minic go gcuirfí leaganacha dá sórt ó aithint d'aon toisc chuin "diamhaslú" a sheachaint nó an abairt a mhaolú iarracht dá measfaí í bheith rógharbh. "Dar Príost/Príosc/Cníosc/Cníost" in ionad "Dar Críost", cuiream i gcás.

quote:

Agus nach mbeadh "By my baptism" níos cruinne



"By" a déarfadh an Béarlóir. "Ar" a déarfadh an cainteoir Gaelainne.

"Ambriathar" leagan eile athá ana-choitianta: ar mo briathar.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11224
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ná tosaímis ar an argóint sin arís: ach anois nuair a smaoiním air, Upon my word, tá an ceart agat!

Zounds, ach tá an gramadach casta....

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1127
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

. . . an ghramadach ;o)

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1128
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ar mo leabhar breac! - ceann eile

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11225
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Luaigh mé do leabhar breac thuas, ach gur ró shéimhigh mé é! (Sofhriotal is ea Zounds = by our Lord's wounds. Ní hiad na Gaeil amháin a bhí tugtha dá leithéidí)

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Iolann_fionn
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Username: Iolann_fionn

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 12:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dúirt Carmannach:

Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic are all corruptions of "ar mo baisteadh", literally "upon my baptism". Is it not uncommon in Munster for b, p and m to resist lenition following mo: bhuaileas isteach im póca é.

An uaidh seo a thagann an riail maidir le loime ar ainmfhocail dar tús B, M agus P i ndiaidh an réamhfhocail 'um'? - deirtear linn sna Bráithre nach gcuirtear séimhiú ar na consain bhruasacha, rud is ionann agus b, m, p, creidim.

Ní fheadair an bhfuil an nós céanna beo sna canúintí eile?

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1131
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

An uaidh seo a thagann an riail maidir le loime ar ainmfhocail dar tús B, M agus P i ndiaidh an réamhfhocail 'um'?



Bruasach a theacht i ndiaidh bruasach eile fé ndeár é, déarfainn ach ní hi gcónaí a fágtar an brusach lom théis "mo", áfaigh.

Recte: "Carmanach" - aon n amháin. :o)

quote:

Ní fheadair an bhfuil an nós céanna beo sna canúintí eile?



N'fheadar an maireann an réamhfhocal u(i)m chuige sa dá mhórchanúint eile.

"Ní fheadar an bhfuil . . . " - gan i sa chéad phearsa uatha - ach "n'fheadair sé/sí" - agus i ann. Seo dhuit na foirmeacha go léir i gCorca Dhuibhne:

n'fheadar
n'fheadaraís
n'fheadair sé/sí
n'fheadramair
n'fheadrabhair
n'fheadradar, n'fheadair siad :o)

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Iolann_fionn
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Username: Iolann_fionn

Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 01:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A Charmanaigh,

Maith dom mo chuid meancóg, agus mo bhuíochas leat as a gcur ar mo shúile dom.

Níor thuig mé, ámh, an chuid seo:
N'fheadar an maireann an réamhfhocal u(i)m chuige

Cad is ciall nó feidhm le 'chuige' anseo?

Ba mhíle fearr liom na botúin a cheartú lom láithreach in áit a bheith ag spalpadh seafóide i rith an ama!

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1132
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 01:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Cad is ciall nó feidhm le 'chuige' anseo?



"In aon chor".

quote:

Ba mhíle fearr liom na botúin a cheartú lom láithreach in áit a bheith ag spalpadh seafóide i rith an ama!



Ceartú (!): "ba mhíle fearr liom sibh a cheartú na mbotún . . . " Más tu féin a dhéanfaidh na botúin, ní gá gur tusa a cheartoidh iad :o)

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 746
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 04:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dar an bportús!

I don't know how anyone can be use whether dom basa or ar mo bhaisteadh is the original of this phrase. Until specific evidence is available, I see this phrase as meaning "by my hands", because I am reluctant to assume that Dinneen was wrong!

Delenition of labials after "m" is normal in Cork Irish (im póca). The next, further, stage is of the dom báthair variety. As mh and bh are pronounced alike, in oral Irish mháthair and bháthair would be identical, producing a situation where not only is bháthair delenited to báthair after "dom, im, etc", but mháthair might be delenited to báthair too.

I asked old speakers about this in the Coolea Gaeltacht, and they all rejected "dom báthair". Probably, it was looked askance at to delenite a consonant to a consonant that was never meant to be there in the first place. And PUL, while he writes im póca, would always write dom máthair, so he doesn't accept dom báthair in print.

But: PUL did have "dom báthair" in his pronunciation!!! He wrote in his Notes on Irish Words and Usages that "agam' mhac" is pronounced "agam' bac"!

I suppose this is a little like my Cockney grandmother saying "has you know", with overcompensation for her h-dropping by putting an "h" in front of "as". It was PUL's deep Cork Irish to say "agam' bac", but he must have been aware of the "error" that involved, and so he never wrote that. And modern speakers of Cork Irish seem comfortable with delenition across labials only to a consonant that was originally there (dom póca), possibly as a result of the education system?

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 710
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 04:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ardfhear, a Chorkirish. Dearna leat as ucht an tsaothair.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1141
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 09:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

The next, further, stage is of the dom báthair variety.



Something that is also found in Corca Dhuibhne but is not obligatory.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11226
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 03:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I don't know how anyone can be sure whether dom basa or ar mo bhaisteadh is the original of this phrase.



Corkirish, I believe both forms exist independently, and that therefore "Ambaiste" is not the standard version of "Ambasa".

I haven't had a chance to check Ó Dónaill yet though.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1143
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Corkirish and Dinneen may well be right but I believe it would be difficult to say conclusively. Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic - all of these forms are in daily use. Ó Dónaill gives "ambasa" as a variant of "ambaiste" and says no more. As for "ambaiste", being "standard" it is also in use in speech in Corca Dhuibhne.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11235
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It's a tricky one in that they are equivalent in meaning but not necessarily in derivation.

(I'd suggest just dropping ambaiste from this definition! PUL may have been careful to avoid ambaiste, given that it refers to the sacrament, and preferred the more euphemistic euphemism. But that is pure speculation on my part)

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 754
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

yes, they could be two separate expressions merged into one, as it were...

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1144
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I'd suggest just dropping ambaiste from this definition!



Why? I remain to be convinced that "ambasa" is not just another variant of "ambaiste".

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 755
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Carmanach, McCionnaith under indeed has an extraordinary number of variants of ambasa/ambaiste!

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1146
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

And there are others, I believe! I vaguely remember seeing "anaisce" somewhere but I can't be sure.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11236
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Because ambaiste clearly does not mean "upon my hands"

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Raic
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Username: Raic

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2010


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I remember reading about this on the wikipedia page on Munster Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Irish). It says, '"The interjections ambaiste, ambaist, ambasa, ambaic "Indeed!", "My word!", "My God!" in West Munster and amaite, amaite fhéinig in Ring (ambaiste = dom bhaisteadh "by my baptism", am basa = dom basaibh "by my palms", ambaic = dom baic "by my heeding"; amaite = dom aite "my oddness")'
I know it's perhaps not the most reliable source but the explanation seems to make sense.
The references cited at the bottom of the page are "Breatnach, Risteard B. (1947), The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, ISBN 0-901282-50-2
Ó Cuív, Brian (1944), The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, ISBN 0-901282-52-9
Sjoestedt, M. L. (1931), Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry, Paris: Librairie Ernest Leroux (French)
Ó Sé, Diarmuid (2000), Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, Dublin: Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, ISBN 0-946452-97-0 (Irish)"

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 756
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 06:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Raic, Wikipedia is not a source, and general references at the bottom of the page do not back up anything in particular on the Wikipedia page. IWM certainly does not explain what ambasa/dom basa means.

it is probably the same expression that has diverged in terms of pronunciation, and then been reanalyzed. After the pronunciation diverged, some people analyzed it as "by my baptism", others as "by my palms" etc - and the others you cited - none of which make perfect sense.

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Raic
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Username: Raic

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2010


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 07:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Fair enough. That particular statement hadn't got a cited references so I posted all the ones that were at the bottom of the page just in case anyone could find something in the ones they have. Thought it might lead somewhere - apparently not. :(

"it is probably the same expression that has diverged in terms of pronunciation, and then been reanalyzed"
I suppose that's a good explanation considering how similar they all are but it's a pity there is no hard evidence either way.



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