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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 04:06 pm: | |
As people here may know, I am converting the footnotes in Niamh into a foclóirín at the back. I have done the first 15 chapters, one-quarter of the book, and the Foclóirín is 11 pages long. I think it is quite a good basic guide to some key differences in vocabulary in Cork Irish, and so I formatted it as a PDF for people to download at www.corkirish.com/audio/focloirin.pdf |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11210 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 04:13 pm: | |
Bullaí fir! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3802 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:02 pm: | |
Nice. Why did you write "eirím"? Since there's a diphthong I would have spelt it "eighrím". Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 733 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:15 pm: | |
Lughaidh, I am trying to fit in with the Muskerry house style. The spelling eighrím would be simply made up, however close to the pronunciation. In fact, it would be a spelling mistake to write eighrím. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3803 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:38 pm: | |
Why? I already saw it written like that though! Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 736 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 05:41 pm: | |
Lughaidh, je crua ke ty népèl pa le fransé com sa! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3805 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:28 am: | |
Once again I already saw eighrím, written like that though. Not written by a learner. Anyway, I don't understand why you write everything phonetically in your foclóirín but you say it's not good to write "eighrím" because it's too phonetic. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11216 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:31 am: | |
quote:Ambasa: “indeed”, or ambaiste in Standardised Irish. Literally “by my hands”. Pronounced /əm'bɑsə/. Are you sure of the literal meaning? I thought this was "By my baptism" |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11217 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:34 am: | |
ambaiste [intriacht] dar mo bhaiste. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11218 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 08:37 am: | |
But I see Dineen has "Ambasa" by my hands; I believe these are two different interjections. I don't have Ó Dónaill to hand to see whether Ambasa is listed. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1123 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:01 am: | |
quote:Ambasa: “indeed”, or ambaiste in Standardised Irish. Literally “by my hands”. Pronounced /əm'bɑsə/. Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic are all corruptions of "ar mo baisteadh", literally "upon my baptism". Is it not uncommon in Munster for b, p and m to resist lenition following mo: bhuaileas isteach im póca é. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11221 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:05 am: | |
An bhfuil tú ag rá go raibh Ó Duinnín mícheart? Thug seisean "On my hands" mar Béarla ar ambasa. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11223 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:12 am: | |
Agus nach mbeadh "By my baptism" níos cruinne: cf "ar mo leabhar bhreac" 7rl: Tá "Mionnaím ar mo X" intuigthe anseo, sílim. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1126 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:27 am: | |
quote:An bhfuil tú ag rá go raibh Ó Duinnín mícheart? Thug seisean "On my hands" mar Béarla ar ambasa. Is dóigh liom é. Ag cuimhneamh ar "ar mo basa" a bhí sé. Féach gur minic go gcuirfí leaganacha dá sórt ó aithint d'aon toisc chuin "diamhaslú" a sheachaint nó an abairt a mhaolú iarracht dá measfaí í bheith rógharbh. "Dar Príost/Príosc/Cníosc/Cníost" in ionad "Dar Críost", cuiream i gcás. quote:Agus nach mbeadh "By my baptism" níos cruinne "By" a déarfadh an Béarlóir. "Ar" a déarfadh an cainteoir Gaelainne. "Ambriathar" leagan eile athá ana-choitianta: ar mo briathar. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11224 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:30 am: | |
Ná tosaímis ar an argóint sin arís: ach anois nuair a smaoiním air, Upon my word, tá an ceart agat! Zounds, ach tá an gramadach casta.... |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1127 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:33 am: | |
. . . an ghramadach ;o) |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1128 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:34 am: | |
Ar mo leabhar breac! - ceann eile |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11225 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 11:43 am: | |
Luaigh mé do leabhar breac thuas, ach gur ró shéimhigh mé é! (Sofhriotal is ea Zounds = by our Lord's wounds. Ní hiad na Gaeil amháin a bhí tugtha dá leithéidí) |
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Iolann_fionn
Member Username: Iolann_fionn
Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 12:09 pm: | |
Dúirt Carmannach: Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic are all corruptions of "ar mo baisteadh", literally "upon my baptism". Is it not uncommon in Munster for b, p and m to resist lenition following mo: bhuaileas isteach im póca é. An uaidh seo a thagann an riail maidir le loime ar ainmfhocail dar tús B, M agus P i ndiaidh an réamhfhocail 'um'? - deirtear linn sna Bráithre nach gcuirtear séimhiú ar na consain bhruasacha, rud is ionann agus b, m, p, creidim. Ní fheadair an bhfuil an nós céanna beo sna canúintí eile? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1131 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 12:55 pm: | |
quote:An uaidh seo a thagann an riail maidir le loime ar ainmfhocail dar tús B, M agus P i ndiaidh an réamhfhocail 'um'? Bruasach a theacht i ndiaidh bruasach eile fé ndeár é, déarfainn ach ní hi gcónaí a fágtar an brusach lom théis "mo", áfaigh. Recte: "Carmanach" - aon n amháin. :o) quote:Ní fheadair an bhfuil an nós céanna beo sna canúintí eile? N'fheadar an maireann an réamhfhocal u(i)m chuige sa dá mhórchanúint eile. "Ní fheadar an bhfuil . . . " - gan i sa chéad phearsa uatha - ach "n'fheadair sé/sí" - agus i ann. Seo dhuit na foirmeacha go léir i gCorca Dhuibhne: n'fheadar n'fheadaraís n'fheadair sé/sí n'fheadramair n'fheadrabhair n'fheadradar, n'fheadair siad :o) |
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Iolann_fionn
Member Username: Iolann_fionn
Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 01:02 pm: | |
A Charmanaigh, Maith dom mo chuid meancóg, agus mo bhuíochas leat as a gcur ar mo shúile dom. Níor thuig mé, ámh, an chuid seo: N'fheadar an maireann an réamhfhocal u(i)m chuige Cad is ciall nó feidhm le 'chuige' anseo? Ba mhíle fearr liom na botúin a cheartú lom láithreach in áit a bheith ag spalpadh seafóide i rith an ama! |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1132 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 01:25 pm: | |
quote:Cad is ciall nó feidhm le 'chuige' anseo? "In aon chor". quote:Ba mhíle fearr liom na botúin a cheartú lom láithreach in áit a bheith ag spalpadh seafóide i rith an ama! Ceartú (!): "ba mhíle fearr liom sibh a cheartú na mbotún . . . " Más tu féin a dhéanfaidh na botúin, ní gá gur tusa a cheartoidh iad :o) |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 746 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 04:31 pm: | |
Dar an bportús! I don't know how anyone can be use whether dom basa or ar mo bhaisteadh is the original of this phrase. Until specific evidence is available, I see this phrase as meaning "by my hands", because I am reluctant to assume that Dinneen was wrong! Delenition of labials after "m" is normal in Cork Irish (im póca). The next, further, stage is of the dom báthair variety. As mh and bh are pronounced alike, in oral Irish mháthair and bháthair would be identical, producing a situation where not only is bháthair delenited to báthair after "dom, im, etc", but mháthair might be delenited to báthair too. I asked old speakers about this in the Coolea Gaeltacht, and they all rejected "dom báthair". Probably, it was looked askance at to delenite a consonant to a consonant that was never meant to be there in the first place. And PUL, while he writes im póca, would always write dom máthair, so he doesn't accept dom báthair in print. But: PUL did have "dom báthair" in his pronunciation!!! He wrote in his Notes on Irish Words and Usages that "agam' mhac" is pronounced "agam' bac"! I suppose this is a little like my Cockney grandmother saying "has you know", with overcompensation for her h-dropping by putting an "h" in front of "as". It was PUL's deep Cork Irish to say "agam' bac", but he must have been aware of the "error" that involved, and so he never wrote that. And modern speakers of Cork Irish seem comfortable with delenition across labials only to a consonant that was originally there (dom póca), possibly as a result of the education system? |
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Ormondo
Member Username: Ormondo
Post Number: 710 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 04:56 pm: | |
Ardfhear, a Chorkirish. Dearna leat as ucht an tsaothair. Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1141 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 09:03 pm: | |
quote:The next, further, stage is of the dom báthair variety. Something that is also found in Corca Dhuibhne but is not obligatory. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11226 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 03:47 am: | |
quote:I don't know how anyone can be sure whether dom basa or ar mo bhaisteadh is the original of this phrase. Corkirish, I believe both forms exist independently, and that therefore "Ambaiste" is not the standard version of "Ambasa". I haven't had a chance to check Ó Dónaill yet though. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1143 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:16 am: | |
Corkirish and Dinneen may well be right but I believe it would be difficult to say conclusively. Ambaist(e)/ambasa/amaite/ambaisc(e)/ambaic - all of these forms are in daily use. Ó Dónaill gives "ambasa" as a variant of "ambaiste" and says no more. As for "ambaiste", being "standard" it is also in use in speech in Corca Dhuibhne. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11235 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:23 am: | |
It's a tricky one in that they are equivalent in meaning but not necessarily in derivation. (I'd suggest just dropping ambaiste from this definition! PUL may have been careful to avoid ambaiste, given that it refers to the sacrament, and preferred the more euphemistic euphemism. But that is pure speculation on my part) |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:28 am: | |
yes, they could be two separate expressions merged into one, as it were... |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1144 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:31 am: | |
quote:I'd suggest just dropping ambaiste from this definition! Why? I remain to be convinced that "ambasa" is not just another variant of "ambaiste". |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:33 am: | |
Carmanach, McCionnaith under indeed has an extraordinary number of variants of ambasa/ambaiste! |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 1146 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:39 am: | |
And there are others, I believe! I vaguely remember seeing "anaisce" somewhere but I can't be sure. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 11236 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:40 am: | |
Because ambaiste clearly does not mean "upon my hands" |
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Raic
Member Username: Raic
Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2010
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 05:41 am: | |
I remember reading about this on the wikipedia page on Munster Irish ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Irish). It says, '"The interjections ambaiste, ambaist, ambasa, ambaic "Indeed!", "My word!", "My God!" in West Munster and amaite, amaite fhéinig in Ring (ambaiste = dom bhaisteadh "by my baptism", am basa = dom basaibh "by my palms", ambaic = dom baic "by my heeding"; amaite = dom aite "my oddness")' I know it's perhaps not the most reliable source but the explanation seems to make sense. The references cited at the bottom of the page are "Breatnach, Risteard B. (1947), The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, ISBN 0-901282-50-2 Ó Cuív, Brian (1944), The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, ISBN 0-901282-52-9 Sjoestedt, M. L. (1931), Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry, Paris: Librairie Ernest Leroux (French) Ó Sé, Diarmuid (2000), Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, Dublin: Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, ISBN 0-946452-97-0 (Irish)" |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 06:02 am: | |
Raic, Wikipedia is not a source, and general references at the bottom of the page do not back up anything in particular on the Wikipedia page. IWM certainly does not explain what ambasa/dom basa means. it is probably the same expression that has diverged in terms of pronunciation, and then been reanalyzed. After the pronunciation diverged, some people analyzed it as "by my baptism", others as "by my palms" etc - and the others you cited - none of which make perfect sense. |
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Raic
Member Username: Raic
Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2010
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 07:55 pm: | |
Fair enough. That particular statement hadn't got a cited references so I posted all the ones that were at the bottom of the page just in case anyone could find something in the ones they have. Thought it might lead somewhere - apparently not. :( "it is probably the same expression that has diverged in terms of pronunciation, and then been reanalyzed" I suppose that's a good explanation considering how similar they all are but it's a pity there is no hard evidence either way. |
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