Corkirish writing "rein" when he meant "reign" got me thinking about this: Homophones (different spelling, same sound) and homographs (same spelling, possibly different pronunciation).

English, being a pot pourri language, has lots of these.

Don't recall any in Irish, though.

Yes, you are right to point out my errors. Writing rein for reign is a serious error.

well, what about cóir and comhair, lá and lámha? There must be many!

Conas a ataíonn tú? how are you swelling? vs. Conas ataíonn tú? how are you?

Ní bhíonn saoi gan locht, ná daoi gan tallann!

(I think it would only be a serious error if you weren't aware of it. In the heat of a discussion, it is easy to mistype. I'll admit to a degree of spell checker reliance. But these types of mistake cannot [yet] be caught by a spell checker.)

quote:

cóir and comhair

Ah, yes!

quote:

lá and lámha

Not in my idiolect, at least.
(I tried to confirm with abair, but it is slow at the moment)

ádh
áth

PUL said the 2nd of these had a nasal vowel, but I think there is no difference today...

saor -free
saor - mason

How do you pronounce lámha? with a nasal vowel?

Again, I would pronounce these differently. I wonder, I wonder. I may be being misled by the spelling. I read far more than I hear, regrettably.

quote:

saor -free
saor - mason

I believe these are related meanings.

quote:

How do you pronounce lámha? with a nasal vowel?

Sorry, not having had any formal linguistic training, I can't answer that. But I pronounce the "mha".

saoi, suí

Róimh, rómhaibh

Of course many of the homophones would not be confusing in context eg ré and réidhe -a noun and adjective couldn't be confused... But it appears all the dialects will have different homophones!

quote:

But it appears all the dialects will have different homophones!

Well, that is what one would expect.

This is what abair gives (greek to me, but...)

lámha	sil # l̻ˠ aː vˠ ə # sil #
lá	sil # l̻ˠ aː # sil #
ádh	sil # aː # sil #
áth	sil # aː # sil #

So at least "ádh" and "áth" are the same sound according to the Gaoth Dobhair scheme they use.

yes, ádh and áth are both the same according to that. Ulster has a more flattened long a, /a:/ and not /ɑ:/.

As for lá and lámha - it means that lámha is pronounced láva in ulster. Maybe the lárchanúint recommends that pronunciation to learners.

caoi (lament)
cuí (apt, suitable)

duibhe
daoi

donn
domhan

guí
gaoith (dative of gaoth)

uibhe
í
aoi
uí (genitive of Ua)!

buille
buile

caoin
cuimhin
Coinn (genitive of Conn; Dún Chaoin < Dún Choinn, apparently)

rann
ramhann (in Corca Dhuibhne but not in West Muskerry and elsewhere!)

coill (wood)
coill (genitive of coll)

There are many many others. It's only a matter of thinking of them.

Some words I believe were also distinguishable from one another by the presence or absence of nasalisation:

lá
lámha

ní
nimhe (genitive of nimh "bhí fuadar nimhe air")

In each case, the vowel before -mh- takes nasalisation. I think West Muskerry also differentiates áth (ford) from ádh (luck) by having nasalisation in the first even though there was no -mh- there historically.

quote:

There are many many others. It's only a matter of thinking of them.

Is breá liom nuair a níonn daoine eile mo chuid smaoineamh dom. Innealtóir mé tar éis an tsaoil....

Maidir le "caoi" tá seo ann freisin:
caoi [ainmfhocal baininscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
slí, bealach (cén chaoi a ndéanfaidh mé é?); deis, seans (dá bhfaighinn caoi air); bail, riocht (cén chaoi a bhfuil tú? cuir caoi air sin dom).

Nó an bhfuil foghraíocht eile i gceist leis sin?

Well I think PUL may have differentiated áth from ádh, but good luck finding anyone in coolea who still does that. Also - the people in Coolea today don't have nasalisation in any words...

Nasalisation can still be heard in Corca Dhuibhne. More so with some than others.

Caoi in the sense of "way" or "manner" is pronounced /ke:/ in Munster (like "cae") so caoi (lament) and caoi (way, manner) are homographs (same spelling, different meaning) in Munster.

My fiancée's family pronounce áth and ádh differently, but the only difference is a nasal quality to ádh. Something they do in quite a lot of words. The family is originally from Tipperary, if that is of interest to anyone.

Where are they from, Darran?

The grandmother was a native speaker from Ballingarry (Baile an Gharraí) in Southern Tipperary. She lived as an adult near Thurles.
Overall the Irish is more similar to Cork Irish than Corca Dhuibhne, of course I am no expert.

Fascinating. Have any of them been put on tape? I knew there were still a handful of native speakers left in south Tipperary. Apparently, there are still one or two native speakers left in Ballymacoda, east Cork. I don't know if anyone has been near them, though.

As for the Irish of south Tipperary being closer to Cork than Corca Dhuibhne, that shouldn't surprise us. I imagine it's even closer to Déise Irish.

"craoibhe" and "croí" - two other homophones in Munster

Apparently, there are still one or two native speakers left in Ballymacoda, east Cork. I don't know if anyone has been near them, though.

What ??
You mean there are native speakers with (I imagine) unique dialectical traits who haven't been at least recorded ?

(Dála an scéil, conas is féidir athfhriotal i mbosca a dhéanamh ?)

quote:

(Dála an scéil, conas is féidir athfhriotal i mbosca a dhéanamh ?)

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=help

\ + quote + { athfhriotal + }

Fág na spáis ar lár.

quote:

What ??
You mean there are native speakers with (I imagine) unique dialectical traits who haven't been at least recorded ?

Yes, or so I'm told anyway. Apparently, one of them was interviewed in a show on TG4 a few years ago. The one with Pádraig Ó Duinnín called Muintir na Mara in which he travelled along the coast. I don't know if any material has been recorded from them. I imagine there would be a lack of suitably qualified people to do that sort of work nowadays. Wagner visited the area in the fifties taking material from two speakers (point 7 in LASID). Ó Cuív too makes reference to Ballymacoda in Irish Dialects and Irish-speaking Districts.

Roinn and rinn (St. "rinne") are homophones in Ulster.
There are several words that are spelt and pronounced "leis".
Chonaic and tháinig are homophones in certain Ulster dialects.
I think "uair" and "uaigh" are homophones in Gaoth Dobhair (since final and intervocalic r's are often pronounced /j/ there).

Maybe "mó" and "mothaigh" are homophones in Cois Fhairrge (/mu:/)...

quote:

Maybe "mó" and "mothaigh" are homophones in Cois Fhairrge (/mu:/)...

And "gnóthaigh"/"gnó" - /gru:/ in Cois Fhairrge?

Two other homophones from Munster "cailleach" and "coileach" both being /k'l'ax/.

"arán" and "rámhann" in West Muskerry - /ra:n/ (?)

"cuileachta" and "cleachtadh" - /k'l'axdə/.

Indeed, that last one in Corca Dhuibhne has meant that "cleachtadh" = "practicing", "performing" is rarely used nowadays because of the risk of confusion with "cuileachta" = "fun", "sport", "crack". People normally often use "preactasáil" for "practicing", instead.

quote:

(since final and intervocalic r's are often pronounced /j/ there)

As would appear to be the case in south Leinster as well when Irish was spoken there. I found several examples of "Mauyeen" and "Mauya" for Máirín and Máire respectively in Co Wexford.

quote:

\ + quote + { athfhriotal +

Fág na spáis ar lár.

Go raibh maith agat.

cú - cumha (ignoring nasalisation for a moment!)

Learners often pronounce the final "a" in words like "cumha", "rogha", "togha" but I don't believe any dialect retains the final a in speech, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Carmanach, I believe craoibhe is /kri:vʹi/. I'm not sure where I got that from - it may have been from a Leitriú Shimplí transcription by Shán Ó Cuív.

Ó Sé (255) gives craoibhe /kri:/. I have a hazy recollection of seeing /kri:vʹi/ mentioned somewhere.

Reminds me of "rogha" and "ré", homophones in Donegal.

"Tae" and "togha" are almost homophones, I think "tae" has an English-like "t" (if I remember well).

Glas (green) and glas (lock)

Carmanach,

quote:

Fascinating. Have any of them been put on tape?

No, not to my knowledge. There is an uncle who is still more comfortable in Irish than English, particularly when discussing literature, perhaps he may have been or perhaps siblings of the grandmother. I'll try to find out.

Another interesting point is that the great-grandmother was a native Welsh speaker.

quote:

As for the Irish of south Tipperary being closer to Cork than Corca Dhuibhne, that shouldn't surprise us. I imagine it's even closer to Déise Irish.

Yes, I've asked about this and Déise Irish is indeed very similar to theirs.

It's very possible though that the Irish has become more generically Munster over the generations. The most recent two generations had native speakers from Corca Dhuibhne as Irish teachers and their most common point of interaction with other Irish speakers was Corca Dhuibhne. However they still sound a bit different, very nasal in certain places.

Regardless I feel very lucky, it's a great environment for me to learn in.

Another pair:

"Conradh" and "cónra".

Imagine confusing the two and spelling the Irish-language organisation's name as "Cónra na Gaeilge"... ;)

quote:

"Conradh" and "cónra".

Where are they homophones? Galway? Isn't "cónra" "cúntra" in Galway Irish?

I think the /t/ sound is optional in that context, well anyway according to O Siadhail. But you'd have to ask native speakers to get a definite answer.

So they would be homophones in Galway Irish then?

(Message edited by carmanach on January 18, 2011)

Yes, I meant Connemara Irish. Brón orm nár luaigh mé ar dtús cén chanúint a raibh mé ag caint uirthi.

quote:

I think the /t/ sound is optional in that context, well anyway according to O Siadhail. But you'd have to ask native speakers to get a definite answer.

I've also wondered whether Drumcondra < Droim Conrach might be an example of the same process?

Fascinating. Have any of them been put on tape? I knew there were still a handful of native speakers left in south Tipperary. Apparently, there are still one or two native speakers left in Ballymacoda, east Cork. I don't know if anyone has been near them, though.

Although they might not be entirely reliable with regard to the Irish language (it might have been a status symbol not to have it) it is worth looking up the census returns for 1901 and 1911.

Ballymacoda seems to have been a Gaeltacht-type area at the time (among all age groups) so it need not be a surprise if there are a few native speakers left.

There is not the same weight of evidence in the case of Ballingarry. Maybe it was some townland in the vicinity?

I wonder if independence had kicked in one generation earlier than it did would the prospects for preservation and revival have been substantially better?

On account of the critical mass aspect, for example.

Ormondo,

quote:

There is not the same weight of evidence in the case of Ballingarry. Maybe it was some townland in the vicinity?

It was indeed. Earlshill specifically. Other members of the family were in Glengoole, Kilaheen and Lickfinn.

Anyway, if there are still a handful of native speakers left in south Tipperary, someone should get down there double quick and record some material from them before they're pushing up daisies. The same goes for Ballymacoda. If little or no attempt has been made over the years to record these people properly, one wonders what exactly it is some people are being paid to do. That is no criticism of anyone here, you understand. I'm talking about academics and professional linguists. I know that many people wouldn't want to be put on tape anyway but even transcribing material from them into written form. Something. Anything. If someone told me that there was a native speaker of Wexford Irish still alive and well in my own County Wexford, I'd be on my way to Busáras as we speak!!

Sé mhilliún agus sé bhilliún?

Lao, laoi, luí and laí?

quote:

Lao, laoi, luí and laí?

Yes they would be homophones in Connachta and Ulster but not in Munster:

lao /le:/
laoi /li:/
luí /li:/
laí /lai/ as in "leathlaí".

In fact, on second thoughts, isn't luí not /lai/ in Conamara? So, they would only be homophones in Ulster, if we disregard for a minute -ao- as /ʎː/ alongside /iː/ in Ulster.

Of course, there are some great homophones in Irish:

a (vocative particle)
a (relative particle)
a (possessive)
a (enumerative particle)
a (particle governing the verbal noun)

and this:

do (perfective particle)
do (preposition)
do (particle governing the verbal noun)

and this:

go (with)
go (to)
go (adverbial particle)

Who says there are no homophones as Gaedhilg?

I recant so: Or rather, I framed the question incorrectly - what I meant was that there are few pairs which would be as easilty confused as rein/reign - but I had forgotten comhair/cóir which I confused myself recently !

(But at least this thread has been almost entirely about Irish!)