Right, read something on citizens' informatation site just now with 'chomh íseal' written in the text.

Immediately I thought it should be 'chomh híseal' and a search in the corpas shows up results for just 'chomh híseal' and same with iontach; that is with no examples of 'chomh íseal' without the h in front.

Does anyone know if both h and without the h are spoken by native speakers in this example with chomh?

What is making me unsure is because there are loads of examples of 'chomh íseal' without the h fronting the adjective following chomh on offical type government documents online so I'm wondering if they made that the standard form for chomh + adjective beginning on vowel?? Why else is the h missing?

'Chomh híseal' sounds more natural but that is just to my ear and I want to be sure.

(Message edited by sineadw on January 15, 2011)

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What is making me unsure is because there are loads of examples of 'chomh íseal' without the h fronting the adjective following chomh on offical type government documents online so I'm wondering if they made that the standard form for chomh + adjective beginning on vowel?? Why else is the h missing?

No. In the CO, chomh + h + vowel - always. As I understand it, a lot of the stuff being translated for government departments is done by freelancers with varying levels of Irish. That's just the way it is nowadays unfortunately. I think Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs may have some inhouse translators for doing Pat Carey's speeches in the Dáil and such but apart from them the only state office that has a full time team of professional translators is the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas. If you're ever in doubt about such things as chomh + h, just take a look at Ó Dónaill.

Wow that's disappointing. I will disregard those texts from now on, it just made me second guess myself because there were a good many examples without the h. Well thanks a mil for clearing that up for me.

The difficulty is that translation is hard; but things like Google translate make it seem easy. So it is poorly paid, and doesn't attract good people. Not to mention the "'Tis only Irish, 'twill do" attitude.

These people are unscrupulous! No standing back from what they're doing and asking themselves are they able to do the work :(

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Well thanks a mil for clearing that up for me.

No worries! Don't be too discouraged Sinéad but do treat anything you see on official websites and on the internet in general with care. If in doubt check Ó Dónaill.

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The difficulty is that translation is hard; but things like Google translate make it seem easy.

A general rule followed worldwide is that you always translate into your own native language. In Irish that is not the case. Most translators - like most speakers - are native English speakers speaking Irish they learned out of books or from other Anglophones. I have never used Google translate in my life and am afraid to go anywhere need it as I don't know who put it together and what sort of Irish they have. You know, I've had people say to me stuff like "But you're wrong!! I saw it on the website of the Minshter for Fwelly-Throwing" so it's gotta be correct!!"

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So it is poorly paid, and doesn't attract good people.

Not true. Freelancers get very good money. I used to do a lot of freelance translation work myself years ago. The problem is not money but a lack of people with good Irish. At least now, though, we have the translators' cert thing from the Foras so things are a bit better than what they were.

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Not to mention the "'Tis only Irish, 'twill do" attitude.

True, but the worst crowd for that sort of mentality are often the native English-speaking Gaeilgeoir crowd themselves. "Sure, who cares if it's correct? Who cares if no native Gaeltacht speaker would say that? Who cares if the sentence makes no sense whatsoever unless one thinks of it in English??". We see a lot of that sort of thing on here too unfortunately.

Chomh does not require the prosthetic h in Cois Fhairrge Irish. Thus 'chomh íseal'. I vaguely remember hearing the schwa of chomh elided in 'chomh ard' so that it sounded as 'chard'. (In the same way as 'ro-fhada' becomes 'rada' in Connemara). So, 'chomh íseal' may well be 'chaoiseal' in the speech of a Connemara Irish speaker.

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Chomh does not require the prosthetic h in Cois Fhairrge Irish.

Thanks for that, Peter. That may well explain it alright. However, if I'm not very much mistaken, a lot of the people putting up stuff in Irish on the web wouldn't know the Irish of Cois Fhairrge if it came up and bit them so they were in all likelihood not thinking of what people in Indreabhán would say!

Yes, wholesome thanks from me too Peter.

According to the Ulster literature, it looks like the local equivalent (comh or gomh) prefixes h- to vowels in that dialect.

Cool Lughaidh, I didn't know there were differences between the dialects for this so that's great to know.

I was also wondering if anyone who has it by them would mind looking in 'Learning Irish' just to see what Ó Siadhail has for this? I won't see my copy until the weekend.

Or even Modern Irish. You'll find info on all the dialects in that. Learning Irish only has Galway Irish.

I don't have Modern Irish yet Carmanach. I'm learning Conamara Irish anyway so that's my main interest dialects wise.

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I don't have Modern Irish yet Carmanach. I'm learning Conamara Irish anyway so that's my main interest dialects wise.

Modern Irish might be heavy going for you if you've just started learning Irish but he does describe all of the dialects. My only gripe with the book is the map at the start. If he himself put it together, he hasn't a clue where some places in Munster are! He has Ring for example thirty miles to the east of where it actually is!

Ah yes the elusive Ring. Well let's forgive him that eh. I ended up in another Ring myself on the coast of Wexford - of all places - on my first attempt to visit An Rinn.

Anyway are you mixing me up with somebody else? The other day you jumped to explain the difference between isteach and istigh to me on foot of a typo.. one of the most basic things in the language. I'm not one of your B-ed students ;) Don't get me wrong, I don't have an ego or at least I know how to keep it in its place but I do hope you listen this time when I repeat that I haven't just started learning Irish so please stop being patronising, inadvertently or not.

Sineadw, you can get yourself in a lot of trouble visiting the wrong Rings!

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Ah yes the elusive Ring. Well let's forgive him that eh

Perhaps, but Ring is not the only place he has marked in incorrectly on the map. There are at least two other places in Munster marked incorrectly. Not a mortal sin, no, but strange nevertheless especially since he doesn't seem to have been quite so confused with places in Connachta and Ulster, unless I'm mistaken. In fairness though, he may not have drawn up that map at all.

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I ended up in another Ring myself on the coast of Wexford - of all places - on my first attempt to visit An Rinn.

True. There is a place called Ring near Lady's Island.

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Anyway are you mixing me up with somebody else?

I hope I'm not, Sinéad. You're the only Sinéad on here as far as I can see. If I did do so, I apologise.

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The other day you jumped to explain the difference between isteach and istigh to me on foot of a typo.. one of the most basic things in the language.

My intention was to help you, Sinéad, nothing else. I assumed (wrongly) that you might not have understood the difference. I'm afraid to make any further assumptions in helping people lest I step on their corns.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't have an ego or at least I know how to keep it in its place but I do hope you listen this time when I repeat that I haven't just started learning Irish so please stop being patronising, inadvertently or not.

I honestly had no idea what your own level of Irish is and for how long you've been learning it. Believe me, there was never any intention on my part to be patronising to you. If you'd rather I didn't try to help you, that's fine. Just tell me, and I'll keep my mouth shut.

Yes, beware the deceptive grassy gaps for instance. I thought it was the end of my car..

" Believe me, there was never any intention on my part to be patronising to you. If you'd rather I didn't try to help you, that's fine. Just tell me, and I'll keep my mouth shut"

Cool, and also sorry maybe I'm irritable today de cheal codlata.
Please by all means help when you think you can. I'd appreciate it.

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Cool, and also sorry maybe I'm irritable today de cheal codlata.
Please by all means help when you think you can. I'd appreciate it.

No problema! I'm still feeling a bit groggy myself from Saturday night. I was in the horrors yesterday, I can tell you. I'm not in my twenties anymore. I just can't drink that amount of alcohol and function effectively the day after!

How did you end up in Ring, Co Wexford, may I ask? Sat nav? I don't think there's anything there, not even a village! Ringsend is another one of those "Rings": An Rinn and there are probably others.

I've just myself to blame ..time to reconsider my views on sat nav!! I was starting out in Wexford town and didn't know the area very well apart from the town itself and when I looked up the index in the atlas for An Rinn/Ring (can't remember which I searched under) I didn't cross reference for the county.. how was I to know there'd be more than one Ring around Wexford/Waterford :) I think as well I just got carried away since strangely unsuspiciously it seemed a bit closer than I had expected!

Anyway yes there was nothing there, not a pub or a shop or anything just road and fantastic scenery .. so that again doesn't exactly help you think straight :)

Well, your sat nav brought you to one Ring at least - just not the right one!

The interesting thing about the name Ring and the nearby headland Bing (< Binn) is that they appear to show /ŋ'/ for slender double n which is the norm over most of Munster.

Haven't learned too much about the phonetic symbols yet so forgive me for my simplistic way of spelling the sounds.

An Rínn (í + slender sounding n) is how I pronounce it as I've been concentrating on the Conamara dialect.

'An Ryne' is how I think they pronounce this in Munster, with the broad sounding n at the end.

So do you mean you find it interesting that they pronounce the slender double n with this broader n sound?

Is this an exception in Munster pronunciation of slender double n? Or is this the norm there?

Rinn - should be rye-ng in the local dialect.

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'An Ryne' is how I think they pronounce this in Munster, with the broad sounding n at the end.

No. In the Déise specifically it's Ry-ng, with ng like that in "shopping" but slender not broad. In most of Munster it's Reeng but in Corca Dhuibhne it's Reen with slender n at the end.

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So do you mean you find it interesting that they pronounce the slender double n with this broader n sound?

No, that you use a slender "ng" for double slender n.

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Is this an exception in Munster pronunciation of slender double n? Or is this the norm there?

The slender "ng" is the form found in most of Munster with slender "n" in Corca Dhuibhne, Cléire and a few other places in the southwest corner.

Grand so, I thought the n at the end was commoner than the ng sound but to be honest I hardly listen to Munster Irish at all.