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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (January-February) » Archive through January 22, 2011 » More on dialectal spelling « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 667
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As Aonghus said, tu (disjunctive) is written tú nowadays.

As I have observed before, I would like Niamh to be edited into modern spelling, and not to gaily veer away from the Standard spellings for no good reason. This is because the book could easily become unreadable for people not interested in Cork dialect otherwise.

But if I publish my Niamh through the literary committee in Muskerry, I have been told I need to do the following:

All disjunctive tú's: must be written tu (regardless of whether tú stood in the original)
All dó (to him): must be written do (dó stood in the original)
Cinn: cínn
Sinsear: sínsear
Banríon: bannrín (because the pronunciation is bow-reen; but while this spelling would capture the diphthong, it doesn't address the deletion of the first n; I would prefer banrín myself)
Dealramh: deabhramh
Eol: eól (all eó's to be spelled with a fada)
Ard: árd (all long vowels before rn, rd and rl to be written with a fada)
Saoil: saeil (a spelling that doesn't even exist... and yet a glance at the edition of Pinocchio shows they spelled "naoi" as "naoi" and not "nae", so I don't think these spellings make total sense)
É a chur: é ' chur (even where the particle governing the verbal noun was in the original)
I am also very reluctant to change Luimneach to Luimne, supposedly the Muskerry form, but not the one in the original text.

I have also been told all the notes in my version are too "chatty" - whereas I think they are the very point of my version. I wanted to point out where the forms used in Niamh vary from those in Standard Irish, and discuss difficult grammatical points and also give some historical background. Of course, these can go in Endnotes instead of footnotes, but I would be reluctant to ditch them altogether. I simply feel that the book would have fewer than 100 purchasers if edited the way they want. What do people think?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11164
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 11:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I simply feel that the book would have fewer than 100 purchasers if edited the way they want. What do people think?



You'll be doing well to get 100 purchasers anyway, I'm afraid.

It all depends on marketing.

Personally I think that if the book is aimed at a general readership, then moving the material to the end might be better.

I have no opinion on the spelling changes, but if that is their house style, ....

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 246
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I personally would not object to any dialectical spellings as long as they are to be found somewhere in Ó Dónaill's dictionary.

As a learner, I would of course prefer that the notes be included as footnotes rather than endnotes. Hopefully, they can be reasoned with on this minor point. And "chattiness" is a good thing, right?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 671
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

>>And "chattiness" is a good thing, right?
---------------

Well, there are proper study editions of the old works. Anyone reading Séadna will find numerous passages that require elucidation. I think some Irish experts can operate within a "bubble", assuming that all Irish people read Irish. In fact, nearly everyone reading Séadna will require explanations that are not available anywhere.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 247
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Well, there are proper study editions of the old works.



Sounds great! Would you like to name a few of them? Are they in print? Where can they be found?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 673
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I meant: there are NO proper study editions of the old works.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1134
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I just wonder how many people are involved in "the literary committee in Muskerry" and what competence they themselves have in the language.

It occurs to me that a number of alternatives are available, the easiest of which might be just to republish the texts exactly as An tAthair Peadar intended, leaving the old script, the old spelling, and everything as it was. One of the problems with the scribes of old was that, when copying mss, they made changes to original texts when they came across something they didn't understand. I think being a learner yourself, Corkirish, you are taking on a huge task and big responsibility and may inadvertantly fall into the same error. People who know Irish will have little difficulty with such a text provided it is not intended for schools.

If it is intended for use in the schools of Muscraí Uí Fhloinn and if I were the parent of a child there I would regret that the child had to learn not one but two "Irish" languages.

Regret? I'd be annoyed. I'd like my child to know Irish but I would not overload the poor creature with three or four different spellings of the same word.

When writing in "examination Irish" the child has to write "tú" -- "banríon" -- "dealramh" etc and yet is presented with "tu" -- "bannrín" and "deabhramh" in a reading text. The list of the various spellings of "i gcónaí" elsewhere surely illustrates the need for a standard. I think we should all read Niall Ó Dónaill's "Forbairt na Gaeilge" again and think about what he says.

If the objective is to prepare Cork Irish for the grave and issue a scholarly tome that will never be read except by other PhDs searching for incidences of "eo" instead of "eó" in West Muskerry I respect the motivation but I do not understand the worth of such a project. There are more important "gaid le scaoileadh" if Irish is to survive in some form. Why not do as Gearóid Stockman (?) did in The Irish of Achill and issue some of the material in phonetic script?

I would prefer a "gentle" or "moderate" standardisation of the spelling only - NOT the grammar or the verb forms -- and even then to change nothing that was characteristic or indicative of the dialect. Some ridiculous revisions of songs have been issued where the rhyme and rhythm have been lost through careless (ignorant) standardisation. A transitional rendition of the texts to make them less distant from the standard is what is required (IMHO).

I agree wholeheartedly with the inculcation of a knowledge of and respect for the local dialect in its local area but Irish is larger now than any one of the dialects. The issue remains the same today as it did in An tAthair Peadar's day. Irish had been neglected as a literary language for hundreds of years. There is now a standard which is in use. Why not go with it. Of course it was only for learners but listen to the children in any Gaeltacht school and hear which language they all speak and which they will have to learn as a second language.

There is no need for those who disagree with my view to launch into a tirade of abuse against me. I can read and understand a reasoned argument as well as anyone else and be persuaded that I am wrong -- if I am. Politeness is appreciated here as much as in the real world outside and makes life more pleasant.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 675
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 08:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

1. The people I referred to, Taidhgín, are competent in the dialect, and include an academic who is the expert in Cork Irish. I didn't mean to discuss their competence, but rather whether it is appropriate to spell "saoil/saoghail" "saeil". As far as I'm concerned, there is no word correctly spelled "saeil" in Irish...

2. I have no trouble transcribing Irish - and have transcribed the first 35 chapters of Niamh in the original spelling. This is because I want a copy of the original text before I start amending it. So it would be a simple thing for me to produce a version that gave the original spellings. I am as competent as anyone else to type the text up - I do not change things because I don't understand them. In fact, I find that when I transcribe, I understand little, I am just copying the letters. It is only when I come to read it properly that I realise what was being said. I do my own proofreading on a separate occasion.

3. No it is not intended for schools - as you know all schools in Ireland teach the CO.

4. I accept the need for standardisation of spelling - but I believe that need was met by Dinneen's dictionary. The only reason I am trying to use the modernised spellings is that no one would read the book otherwise.

5. I am not updating the grammar or the verb forms, just trying to use the Standard spellings wherever possible, unless they are totally unusable.

You can see yourself at http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/niamh-in-modernised-spelling if I am veering too far in one direction or t'other in my modernisation. I think I am doing well, but I would have to start from scratch if I were to get this published (at least in co-operation with the Muskerry group).

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1135
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 09:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I wish you well, Corkirish. We will all have to read Niamh now whenever you get it published. Be assured I'll be among the first to buy it.
le dea-mhéin,
Taidhgín Tréan
(An seanduine feoite)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11175
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 09:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

(An seanduine feoite)



An bhfuil sé chomh fada sin ó bhí d'eachtraí i gcló?

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1136
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 09:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá, a Aonguis! Ró-fhada. Agus an ribe gruaige a bhíodh ina colgsheasamh ar mo chloigeann maol an tráth sin fadó is fada ó shleabhaic sí. Tá blagaid níos maoile anois orm ná mar a bhí an uair sin. 55 - 60 bliain ó shin. Bhinn sa Ghael Óg.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 676
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I have decided I just have to use the Muskerry style guide, as I would be unable to get my questions answered by the few good speakers left otherwise... I am relucant to write saeil, but as I view saoghail as the only correct spelling, the saoil form already has sold that pass...

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3794
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 01:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Yes, since all -aoi- are [i:] in Munster (except in saoil and in naoi, I guess), I think too it's better to write "saoghail" because you can guess the [e:] sound. And I think "saoghal" is in O Donaill's dictionary (if I remember well).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 679
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 09:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I've done 35 of Niamh's 59 chapters, but I am going to take a week out to put the Muskerry style on it. So no queries about Niamh for a few days. I realised that while some words (saeil) appear extraordinary, on an average page there will not be too many words to change, but it will take me some time.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11185
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 09:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go n-éirí go geal leat.

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Darran
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Username: Darran

Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 06:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

David,

I certainly don't have enough knowledge to say anything useful about the suggested changes to spelling, but I would strongly suggest that you keep your commentary in its current "chatty" form and in footnotes.
My experience reading academic texts is that Endnotes suit reference works, but footnotes are better for pedagogical texts.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 695
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 09:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Darran, I wanted it to be a pedagogical text, but if I want to co-operate with experts in Cork Irish, I need to do what they want - and they would have Endnotes and a Foclóirín at the back, but not running footnotes. I have to do what they want. Of course, for learners, it is unhelpful, as you keep having to flick back - but there is often a great pretense in the Irish language community that all Irish people speak Irish, and won't need notes. Look at Liam Mac Mathúna's Séadna - it is effectively unreadable without notes.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3796
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 08:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Footnotes are fine if they aren't too long ; endnotes may be used when you have very long commentaries to add (but not always (eg. Thurneysen's grammar of Old Irish has footnotes, sometimes there are full pages of "footnotes" within a chapter).

quote:

My experience reading academic texts is that Endnotes suit reference works, but footnotes are better for pedagogical texts.



well, I've read many academic texts that have footnotes...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Darran
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Username: Darran

Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 10:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Darran, I wanted it to be a pedagogical text, but if I want to co-operate with experts in Cork Irish, I need to do what they want - and they would have Endnotes and a Foclóirín at the back, but not running footnotes. I have to do what they want.


David, that is unfortunate, but perfectly understandable. If you put them in Endnotes I hope you get to retain some of their "chatty" flavour. I'm still going to buy the book at any rate.

quote:

well, I've read many academic texts that have footnotes...


Lughaidh, perhaps I'm wrong, just a general comment on what I feel suits different academic texts. However I come from a different academic area and you certainly have more knowledge in the field relevant to David's book, so maybe my observations do not hold.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1077
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 02:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In regard to what spellings to employ, I believe that that depends very much on what group the book will be aimed at. If it is the wish of the literary committee that the emphasis should be firmly on showing the layman how the dialect is actually spoken without resorting to phonetic symbols and by adopting a modified spelling that is closer to actual pronunciaion, then I don't see any problem with most of the spellings suggested above. As for "saeil", I have no problem with that either. Others have suggested "saoghail" but that represents the classical pronunciation /seːɣɪl'/ which hasn't been pronounced that way in centuries. "Saoil" could well be confused with /siːl'/ - if the primary aim of the text is to show how the word is pronounced by people on the ground, that is. Which is more important after all; spelling or speech? Shouldn't spelling follow speech and not the other way round?

As for concerns about how many copies less would be sold if one spelling were used instead of another, I think that's more or less irrelevant. Irish books sell few copies as it is, whether they follow the CO strictly or not so I wouldn't be expecting the book to become an international bestseller. I doubt seriously whether it'll be featured on Oprah's book club anytime soon!

quote:

Banríon: bannrín (because the pronunciation is bow-reen; but while this spelling would capture the diphthong, it doesn't address the deletion of the first n; I would prefer banrín myself)



Would "bamhrín" not be better still?

Corkirish, what is your opinion of Donncha Ó Cróinín's approach to spelling in Seanachas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse?

(Message edited by carmanach on January 16, 2011)

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 697
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

>>Corkirish, what is your opinion of Donncha Ó Cróinín's approach to spelling in Seanachas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse?


Total rubbish! Rubáiste ar fad, dar liom!

Look! it shows the pronunciation, but the spellings used just aren't right.

[i' showz the pronunsiayshun, bu' the spellings yoozed just ahn't rite - that would be a similar approach to the one they used]

I think the various experts in Cork Irish are trying to get round the fact that they have never done a full dictionary with IPA of Cork Irish. Of course that it what I am trying to do and if I got up to say 10000 words I would try to see if the Cork Irish experts would collaborate with me to edit it and correct mistakes and publish it.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1078
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Look! it shows the pronunciation, but the spellings used just aren't right.



Would you care to give us some examples?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 698
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Bannrín vs. bamhrín?

Well, I just have to go with what they want - because I don't want to be the English learner with poor Irish turning up there trying to tell them what's what.

Other rulings to give you a flavour:

liomsa: written as liúmsa (apparently the -sa makes the vowel long)
cruinn: cruínn
fearr: feárr
an té bhí (no relative in the original): an té ' bhí
scríobhadar: we have agreed on scrí'dar
mé, tú (disjunctive): always me, tu
baintreach: bainntreach (to show the diphthong)
iontaoibh: iúntaoibh
des na: de sna (to clarify that the s is broad)
chomh: chómh
ghabh: ghoibh
ullamh: ollamh
tharraing: thairrig
timpeall: tímpall
dóigh: we have agreed on dó'
cuimhním: cuímhním
cuimhin: cuímhin

I have to say, though, that it is not every sentence that has one of these, and the whole impression seems more accessible than I thought, not as radical as the spelling adopted in Seanchas Amhlaoibh.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 699
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

But I think as long as every word in Niamh is done in a way that shows the pronunciation, something good will still be being achieved thereby.

Aonghus' argument was the killer for me - if I imagined I was going to be selling thousands of books, I was in cloud cuckoo land - and so it wasn't really going to make any difference in the end, so I decided to just go with the dialectal spellings.

But it means I have numerous spellings for each word now: Dinneens, Ó Dónaill's, PUL's, the one's used in the Muskerry books, etc. How can I keep these sorted in my head?

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Are the recommendations for your own book? I was asking for examples of spellings from Amhlaoibh which you yourself feel are not right. I presume when you say right you mean not accurately showing the actual pronunciation?

quote:

liomsa: written as liúmsa (apparently the -sa makes the vowel long)



Is that not confined to songs

quote:

iontaoibh: iúntaoibh



I would've went for "úntaoibh" there.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 701
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

>>>I presume when you say right you mean not accurately showing the actual pronunciation?


No, I mean not the same as the classical spellings. Eg dineag for dineadh (rinneadh).

It took me ages to look up "taramain" on p1 of Seanchas Amhlaoibh. I now know it is tearmann, "glebe, church land".

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1080
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

But it means I have numerous spellings for each word now: Dinneens, Ó Dónaill's, PUL's, the one's used in the Muskerry books, etc. How can I keep these sorted in my head?



I wouldn't be too worried about that. As long as you have everything efficiently logged on computer and can find it quickly, that's the important thing. I presume you log everything with its page number and the name of the text and such? I use abbreviations and then the page or section number of the book. Dinneen's and PUL's spellings wouldn't be massively different, would they?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 702
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

>>Dinneen's and PUL's spellings wouldn't be massively different, would they?

They are different. Apparently, early on in the Gaelic Revival, PUL was against modernising spellings, being attached to the old stuff, but later on he came to see that the need to propagate Irish required simplification, and so he supported the leitriú shimplí Shán Ó Cuív. In his own works he started trying to show dialectal pronunciations, but in a very inconsistent way.

so while he wrote coimeád and leig (he must have had: cimeád and leog, and I found cimeád in a private letter by him), he used these too (on the right below):

bliadhain: bliain
aois: aoís
deallramh: deabhramh
earra: ara
sinnsear: sínsear
scéal: sgéal
muinntear: muíntir
dearbh-bhráthair: dritháir
diaidh: diaigh
aoirde: aoírde
teicheadh: teitheadh
cómhnaidhe: cómhnuighe
fagbháil: fághail
socrughadh: socarughadh
éirghe: eirighe
tharraing: tharaing
Éireann: Éirean
deireadh: deire
príosún: prísún
caoire: caoira
féadfaí: féadfí
báidh: báigh

Clearly some of these influenced the modern spellings.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 703
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 04:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Carmanach, I transcribe the books I am reading - so that I can electronically search them, so I don't keep a record of page numbers.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 1095
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 - 06:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

caoire:caoira



Slán mar a n-ínstear é!!



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