I have been studying Irish for a little while now. I wouldn't say that I have been studying at a consistently aggressive pace but I have been at least studying steadily. My question is for people who learned Irish later in life and not really for the native, neo-native, multi-native or whatever.

How long has it taken people to be comfortable at reading Irish. I still have a lot of trouble reading conversations in this forum. I was just wondering if maybe I should alter my study habits or if I just need to wait more time and I'm just curious as to how fast or slow other people picked it up.

Well, I don't think you can learn to read just with the standard textbooks. Eg Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon, or any of the others.

I have pursued a "brute force" method of learning to read Irish - after going through the basic textbooks, and wasting a lot of time on various dialects and things - I decided to stick to one thing - Cork Irish. And so I started last year reading Mo Sgéal Féin by PUL, which Jonas on this site said was easy to read.

A lot of learners on this site make statements like that, but a pinch of salt is in order. Mo Sgéal Féin is a challenge after Teach Yourself Irish. I found I learned 2000 words from TYI and a Polish textbook of Munster Irish (An Ghaeilge by Aidan Doyle) and then MSF required me to learn another 2000. Vocabulary wise it was not too bad. But syntactically and in terms of idiom, it was still a challenge.

But the brute challenge consisted of getting a real book and looking up every single word I didn't know however onerous. Chapter 1 of MSF had me looking up 300 words. Obviously it would be very tiresome like that. But I just persisted. I read MSF, most of Séadna (I got a little bored with that) and now most of Niamh - all by PUL - but by now a chapter of Niamh has me looking up about 3 words. So the brute force method does work. You just have to persist with it. I still have many queries, but they are largely "beyond the dictionary" sort of queries - where I have looked up all the words and still don't quite get it - but then that is a great way to use Daltaí!

But: I find PUL easier to read now than any other author. I have become very used to just one person's Irish. I read a four-page letter he wrote last night, and understood the whole without the aid of a dictionary. As soon as I gravitate away from PUL, things get harder. This is both in terms of vocabulary (even Fiche Blian ag Fás, Kerry Irish, has many more words I would have to look up than in an average page of PUL's writings), and in terms of style. I tried reading something by Pádraig Ua Maoileoin (De Réir Uimhreacha) and found the style babyish, similar to the style of a story written by a 10 year old. (Read the first paragraph of that book to realise what I mean - whereas Fiche Blian ag Fás has a perfectly normal style.)

But anyway, you may find yourself at first focusing on one type of Irish and getting comfortable in that first, and still a little at sea with other types of Irish. But if you have completed the learning books - I would go for it! Read a real book!

(Message edited by corkirish on January 07, 2011)

I quite liked De réir uimhreacha, but then I wasn't reading it for the style

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2009/05/fuineadh-fir.html

You might like to try his novel "An Bona Óir", David

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2009/09/ursceilin-orga.html

It is set in a similar era to Niamh.

That's ironic that you mentioned An Bona Óir because it's one of the few novels in Irish that I own. Would this be a good book to start with a brute force method like Corkirish was explaining?

I still find this Site Difficult because of the dialect diffences etc , and the subject matter. Again this could be a how long is a piece of string question. Depending on how long and how often you stury/read, as you have been quite vague. Thre are some really good and useful adult learner books , Teifeach, Paloma etc , but again because of your vagueness its hard to help you with any certainty. I learned as an adult , almost 40 , when i started. But i have put a lot of time in , yet there are just some things i still struggle with like the varying dialects and the old classics like An Druma Mór, Rotha Mór an tsaol etc. But still i try and carry on with the newspapers Foinse, Gaelscéal, Beo etc.

quote:

Would this be a good book to start with a brute force method like Corkirish was explaining?

I'm not the person to answer that, I'm afraid!

A Phaploo! you said you were mainly interested in Donegal Irish, but one good approach would be Learning Irish by Mícheál Ó Siadhail - Galway Irish - followed by Caint Ros Muc. The latter is a wonderful volume of dialogue by the residents of Ros Muc in Galway, with a separate volume with a dictionary and notes in it, and full audio files available on the DIAS website.

If you are committed to Donegal Irish, why don't you finish all 3 volumes of Tús Maith (regardless of the fact they teach a dialect/Standard mix), and then go on to Sgéilíní na Finne at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/sf/index.html . You could read the texts, absorb the vocabulary given in the glossaries and listen to the audio files.

And then read a real book - maybe ask Lughaidh for a suggestion...

Go raibh matih agat, I have Micheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish. I will look into Tús Maith.

Paploo,

How long is a piece of string on this one I am afraid and like many other subjects on Daltai.com likely to inspire passion and divergence of views.

I have to mention a few possiblities however ...

http://www.benmadiganpress.com/irish/book_ag.html

The above is very good.

Another one is Harry Potter in Irish. The advantage being that the English is readily available for when you are stuck. Also, the vocabulary will be readily accessible in The O Dònaill dictionary.

Moving on, I would suggest some Pàdraig Mac Piarais short stories, very accessible, available in bilingual format and there is also a tape available.

Moving on, what about Pàdraig O Conaire, great literature, very accessible Irish.

Finished? An Druma Mòr by Seoasamh Mac Grianna might be up your street.

Not sure if I can think of something accessible from a Munster writer I am afraid.

It is a great way to study by the way, but I feel you need to have modern vocab or you will forget it quickly and that the story needs to be interesting.

Go n-èirì leat.

I started with a book that was written for adults, but quite short -- Fear na Féile Vailintín by Proinsias Mac a’Bhaird. I had to look things up, but it went relatively smoothly. I then tackled the stories in Taisce Focal. These books purposely try to introduce idiom, so it helped me learn some of them. I also regularly read blogs. I often have to look up words, but I usually am reading on the fly at work instead of sitting and thinking about it. Little by little it gets better. I still will say things in my head in English when reading, and so it is not always just read and understand, but read, translate into English, and understand. I realize, though, that in many cases the translation is not needed. So now I am trying to weed that out. All I can say, is start with easier-ish stuff, and move up. I picked up one of Seosamh Mac Grianna's books, and I realized I was going to be looking up a lot. That's fine, but it can get a bit tedious after a while.

Well a book that I already own would be a preferable one for me to start with. Harry Potter would be a good place to start? It is written in standard Irish and not dialect specific?

http://www.beo.ie/
This Site is another great reading aid, Tús maith is excellent also, as is Taisce Focal. Ádh mór ort.

Thanks for the info.

Side note: Has there been any news of translating the sequels of Harry Potter to Irish? I noticed that they even have the second book translated to Latin.

I think a rule that should be followed by all is to only read texts written by native Gaeltacht speakers, that way you can pretty much avoid picking up bad habits from native Anglophone learners. Unfortunately, I've seen a few of those translations of abridged versions of popular English language novels from writers like Maeve Binchy, where the standard of translation and the quality of the Irish is dismal to say the least.

I think another good book is Labharfad le cách. Its in both Irish and English, and the best part is Peig Sayers herself reads it on the cds that accompany the book. And they are reletivly short little stories so you shouldnt get too overwhelmed. I have yet to read it myself even though I own it, but after reading the posts on this thread, I believe I will start on that very soon.

I do have one question for David. How do you commit the new words you look up to memory? I bought a book for adult learners "an tigh glas agus scéalta eile (leagan na Mumhan)" translated the first couple of stories, yet I cant remember the words that I had looked up now. I have been using Quizlet.com for some of the newer material I have been using. and it helps alot when you use thier "Learn It" tool. But I was wondering what you do yourself, as your knowlege of Irish greatly out weighs my own.

Paploo,

Actually, it is strange, myself and an Irish lecturer once had a long conversation on the Harry Potter translation which is generally thought off as suberb and (But?!) absolutetely and completely and utterly standard.

I really enjoyed that book, unfortuenately, they havent don anymore in the series but they have translated a similar book if I can just remember the title..

Artemis Fowl atá i gceist agat, seans

Artemis Fowl
Eoin Colfer

http://www.siopagaeilge.ie/products/D%E9aglitr%EDocht/product8-9.htm

sin è!

An bhfuil sè maith?

Caidé do bharùil ar aistriùchàin den chineàl seo a Aonghuis?

I gcoinne nò ar son?

I have a copy of Artemis Fowl too. I actually found it at a bookstore in Portland, OR. I was surprised that it had a whole shelf of books in Irish. I am usually surprised if a bookstore here in the states has even one book as gaeilge.

quote:

Caidé do bharùil ar aistriùchàin den chineàl seo a Aonghuis?

I gcoinne nò ar son?

Idir eatarthu.

Is dóigh liom gur cur amú acmhainní iad don gcuid is mó, mar go mbeidh an leagan Béarla seanléite ag an gcuid is mó de na léitheoirí sula bhfeictear an leagan Gaeilge.

Sílim go mb'fhearr díriú ar aistriúchán as teangacha seachas an Bhéarla.

Ach bhraith mé go ndearna Máire Nic Mhaoláin ana jab den bpéire acu.

Sorry but i dont get the Harry potter thing, there are enough good Irish Books without useing second hand Translations of established english books.

quote:

go on to Sgéilíní na Finne at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/sf/index.html .

I went to this website and found the word "chomhnuidhe". It wasn't until I listened to the recording that I could hear it say "cónaí". Is this a common alternate spelling in Donegal?

Comhnuidhe is the Classical spelling of 'cònaì' (excuse the fadas going left).

I doubt if anyone in Donegal would use that spelling today or if any dialect fully pronounces it as 'Comhnuidhe'.

The person behind that excellent site believes strongly in retaining the pre-standard spelling in its entirety.

No she is not saying cónaí. She is saying chónaí, with lenition. That is an important distinction.

quote:

I do have one question for David. How do you commit the new words you look up to memory? I bought a book for adult learners "an tigh glas agus scéalta eile (leagan na Mumhan)" translated the first couple of stories, yet I cant remember the words that I had looked up now. I have been using Quizlet.com for some of the newer material I have been using. and it helps alot when you use thier "Learn It" tool. But I was wondering what you do yourself, as your knowlege of Irish greatly out weighs my own.

Well, first of all, the experts here (Carmanach, Aonghus, Lughaidh and others) will be having a chuckle, as I am still a learner in the early stages of my learning and don't want to misrepresent myself as having made more progress with my Irish than I have. I find it very hard to have a conversation in Irish in person, but I have only spent 2 weeks in Ireland. That's not a very good excuse because there are foreigners who learn fluent Irish while abroad without any chance to practice it, but I am not one of them.

Everyone learning any language experiences the situation that he looks up a word and realises to his consternation he has looked it up many times before. That is normal, really. I don't know how many times you have to look something up before it sticks. Another problem is that it can be in your passive vocabulary but not your active vocabulary, or it can be both passive and active, but not in all cases/tenses. Eg you might know "do thaithn sé liom" and then be stumped by the conditional. Practice and doing a little each day should help. If I were in Cork city I would go to the language circles and attend lessons at the Inead Gaelainne Labhartha at the University, and also supplement with one to one lessons. What else can you do?

You could write out flashcards and constantly test yourself, and I do have sets of flashcards with Irish words on, but after a while I got bored filling them in, and there is also the question of "what is a word". Some lexical items are phrases, not words. Cur isteach ar dhuine - seems like a lexical item to me, as it corresponds to "interfere" in England, and so might need to be separately listed from cur, isteach, ar and duine.

Of course being on Daltaí should help and Aonghus does try to nudge people towards more Irish where he thinks they could cope with it (do thugas fé ndear é, a Aonghus, GRMA). You can try to put your thoughts into Irish as you have them, like this: "shall I make myself a cup of coffee? ba mhaith liom cupán caife a dhéanamh dom!" Try not to vocalise it if you're on your own, as talking to yourself is the first sign of madness! And talking to yourself in Irish is even more far gone.

I do not review lists and lists of vocabulary any more - it is after all a hobby and if I forget words, it doesn't matter that much. I am sure I am making progress all the same. But my method is to compile a dictionary of the words I have learned! As I come across a word, it gets entered in my dictionary. Actually, Irish reuses the same words again and again in phrases (like cur isteach ar dhuine, which makes a lexical item using basic words), so I don't come across too many new headwords, 3 maybe in a chapter [but I am not reading modern stuff, which would have many more neologisms], but I do find new nuances of existing words that force me to constantly revise my dictionary handling of headwords I already know. You could print out Mo Sgéal Féin by PUL, chapter 1, and look up all the words and try to understand it all, and then listen to the audio MP3, and keep listening until you understand it all without looking at the text.

But in your email to me you said, "I asked this of you because I am learning from TYI, and you have done so much work on this dialect. I have been learning off and on since '96. But I have to admit up until about a year ago it was half heartedly, looking at my Ó Sé's TYI for a hour or so here and there. I am realy intersted in Munster Irish and hope some day I will have a grasp of the dialect the way you do."

Can I make clear that Ó Sé's TYI is not Munster dialect! Ó Sé is an expert on Munster Irish, but he was required by the company producing the new TYI - Routledge, I think - to write a book on Standard Irish. If you want to learn Munster Irish, you have to get the old TYI by Myles Dillon. It is widely available second-hand, and indeed by PDF download from the Internet - someone on this site has typed it up and stitched MP3 files into the PDF, and you can download that. I would give Ó Sé's TYI a big miss!

(Message edited by corkirish on January 07, 2011)

Ah I forgot to clerify, oops. I do have the old TYI (1966 version)now, the one that I have been using for the past year. The TYI I started with in 96 was the newer one.

Thank you for the advice, its wierd, but Ive never thought of trying to "think" in Irish all the time, I believe that should help alot.

I do have ALOT of flashcard, and I am starting to put more and more on Quizlet, but, after a while it gets to be like Im reading a dictionary everyday. I do think I will print out Mo Sgéal Féin though(as soon as I get a printer).
I also want to read Séanda, as TYI gave me just enough to get me hooked. But I want to make sure its the same one as in TYI.