Ch. 32 of 59.

Do bheinnse ana-bhaoch don duine go mbeadh a dhóthain aimsire aige chun na nithe seo a réiteach dom!

quote:

Dá bhrí sin gur ceart ar dtúis greim daingean a thabhairt don Chreideamh i gcroí agus in aigne an duine.

I thought it was "greim ar". Can anyone explain "greim a thabhairt do"?

quote:

Na ríthe agus na rialtaisí atá sa tsaol anois, an chuid acu go bhfuil aon admháil in aon chor acu do Chreideamh, do cheadóidís an Creideamh le hionchas go ndéanfadh an Creideamh na daoine umhal dóibh.

Admháil "do" Chreideamh? I thought it would be admháil creidimh. Dinneen's and Ó Dónaill's don't have admhaigh do.

The very next sentence says:

quote:

Chomh maith agus gur chuige sin a cuireadh an Creideamh ar bun, chun daoine a dhéanamh umhal do ríthibh!

Chomh maith agus gur: there seems something missed out (from an English perspective). This is a whole sentence. Does it mean "that's as good as SAYING that that's why the Faith was set up, to make the people obedient to kings!"

quote:

Bhí a fhios ag Brian go maith, agus bhí a fhios ag an uile dhuine des na hoidíbh a bhí ag stiúrú na hoibre sin, ná fuil ach diabhal ó ifreann sa bhfear a gheobhaidh scolaíocht gan Creideamh.

Diabhal ó ifreann is a bit strong for an educated atheist. Could it justify a translation "scoundrel"?

quote:

Dá bhrí sin níor ghá do Bhrian bheith ag féachaint ina ndiaidh chun a chur fhiachaibh orthu an Creideamh do mhúineadh. Ach do bhíodh.

Féachaint ina ndiaidh usually means "attending to, looking after". Could it mean "keeping an eye on"?

quote:

Do tugtaí na fir amach os a chomhair agus do cuirtí trína ngleacaíocht iad.

Cur trí in the dictionary doesn't have this meaning. It looks like something like "put them through their paces, make them do all their exercises in front of him", right?

quote:

Do chuireadh gach cóir orthu dár cheart

This dár is usually for gach followed by de+relative particle+perfective particle and the past-tense verb. Here it seems the past-tense copula. I just want to check that a present-tense copula would be usable in the same way: gach...dár ceart?

quote:

go hUíbh Fhiachrach Aidhne

Are all placenames lenited after Uíbh?

Just a cursory throw in: It seems to me that PUL is using "An Creideamh" in the sense of "The Faith", i.e. Roman Catholicism as incorporated in the Church.

yes - his works contain many asides supportive of the Church! ní nách ionadh, agus a rá gur shagart é!

quote:

Are all placenames lenited after Uíbh?

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=u%C3%ADbh&streets=no

I found one example that isn't:

townland
Uíbh Gallchú

http://www.logainm.ie/31824.aspx

"Foirm chalctha den logthuiseal atá anseo"

I've no idea what the "logthuiseal" is: except that clearly it has to do with placenames.

quote:

I thought it was "greim ar". Can anyone explain "greim a thabhairt do"?

I believe the concept of "An Creideamh" as a power acquiring a grip on hearts and minds makes sense here.

quote:

Diabhal ó ifreann is a bit strong for an educated atheist. Could it justify a translation "scoundrel"?

I think the suggestion here is that such a person is one possessed by a Devil rather than that he is a devil.

quote:

It looks like something like "put them through their paces, make them do all their exercises in front of him", right?

To me as well.

"logthuiseal" = "locative (case)", I suppose.

(Message edited by Hugo on January 06, 2011)

Yes: I meant that I didn't know what that entailed.

Aonghus the locative is a case that is used to mean "in a place". There was a distinct locative in Proto Indo European, and eg a few Latin words have a separate locative "domi, at home", but mostly the ablative replaced the former locative case in Latin.

I am not sure Irish ever had a proper locative case. You could say the dative case has locative functions (although unlike a proper dative case, a preposition "in" is needed in Irish). So the comment that place name like Uíbh Laoghaire are in the locative would really mean they were in the dative - the tribe that held the place were called the Uí Laoghaire, and the territory was called Uí Laoghaire initially too, but as you were so frequently saying "in" a place, in Uíbh Laoghaire, the dative stuck as the name.

In fact many Irish placenames appear to be in the dative/locative. Corcaigh, from Corcach, Cionn tSáile, from Ceann tSáile etc. The dative has become the nominative, as placenames are so frequently used with the locative meaning.

I had grasped that. Still no nearer to answering your question on lenition though.

I suggest you ask the Placenames Branch - you can do so through the logainm site.

They generally get back (after some time, sometimes) with a good answer, backed up by evidence.

Google threw up some interesting ones:

http://www.logainm.ie/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4157
long ridge
Ainmfhocal firinscneach é drom (droim), agus is í Drom Fada an fhoirm a mbeifí ag súil léi anseo. Toisc é a bheith sa logthuiseal atá túschonsan an dara focal séimhithe, mar is léir sa bhfianaise (e.g. 1811-2 ‘ó Dhrom fhada’, RIA 24 L 21 [lámhscríbhinn])

I'll see what the placenames branch say!

quote:

Dá bhrí sin gur ceart ar dtúis greim daingean a thabhairt don Chreideamh i gcroí agus in aigne an duine.

Yes, it would normally be "greim ag ar" but read the sentence carefully. It's saying give the Faith a firm hold in heart and mind. "greim a thabhairt do" - tabhair + do.

quote:

Na ríthe agus na rialtaisí atá sa tsaol anois, an chuid acu go bhfuil aon admháil in aon chor acu do Chreideamh

those who have any acknowledgement towards the Faith, i.e. those who are in any way partial or sympathetic towards the Faith. The "do" here would appear to mean "towards", "in the direction of".

quote:

Chomh maith agus gur: there seems something missed out (from an English perspective). This is a whole sentence. Does it mean "that's as good as SAYING that that's why the Faith was set up, to make the people obedient to kings!"

"As if/as though it were for that purpose that the Faith was established"

Note that the Christian Brothers (33.7) mention "chomh maith agus go":

quote:

Cuirtear fochlásal ráiteasach in ionad an chéadbhirt ar lorg chomh ... agus ach coinnítear an modh coinníollach: chomh maith agus go ndéanfadh sé aon bhlúire difríochta! chomh maith agus nach mbeadh ár ndóthain righnis déanta againn cheana féin!

quote:

Diabhal ó ifreann is a bit strong for an educated atheist. Could it justify a translation "scoundrel"?

"An utter scoundrel"!

quote:

Féachaint ina ndiaidh usually means "attending to, looking after". Could it mean "keeping an eye on"?

Well, that is the literal meaning of the expression, so yes, it could mean that. I've suspect "féachaint i ndiaidh duine/ruda" in the sense of "taking care of" as being an anglicism but I note Ó Dónaill has "ag féachaint as a ndiaidh; attending to them".

Thank you for your comments!

quote:

Cur trí in the dictionary doesn't have this meaning. It looks like something like "put them through their paces, make them do all their exercises in front of him", right?

It would appear to mean that, yes.

quote:

This dár is usually for gach followed by de+relative particle+perfective particle and the past-tense verb. Here it seems the past-tense copula. I just want to check that a present-tense copula would be usable in the same way: gach...dár ceart?

Yes, I can't see why not. If the past tense copula is used thus then there's no reason why you can't use the present tense copula likewise.

quote:

Are all placenames lenited after Uíbh?

Well, we have Uíbh Fhailí (Offaly) and Uíbh Fhathaidh in Tipperary. After Uí we have Uí Bhairrche (logainm.ie) but Uí Conaill Gabhra, Uí Fidhgheinte (Dinneen). The Mizen Peninsula in west Cork was once known as Uíbh Eachach anglicised to Iveagh which is also a place in Co Down if I'm not mistaken.