We saw previously that PUL had "deacon" for deagánach, and sacraistí for "eardhamh", and today I saw in Niamh conbhint for clochar. Strange, don't you think, him being a priest and all, that that religious words are straight from English?

Are you sure they're straight from English and not from Latin or French? Bear in mind also that the Vatican and its agents and fellow travellers - apart from PUL, Dinneen and a handful of other clerics - were instrumental in anglicising Irish-speaking Ireland and native speakers were often condemned and ridiculed from the pulpit for speaking their own language.

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=convent&findlet=+ &findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1

Doesn't list conbhint: but lists conuent as an English loanword.

I have a feeling that clochar for convent is relatively new.

DIL Lists clochar only in the meaning of "stony place"

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=ADV&searchText=%20clochar&HIGH=%20clocha r&respage=0&resperpage=10&Fuzzy=0&bhcp=1

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/convent

This list the origin of convent as

1175–1225; < ML conventus; L: assembly, coming together, equiv. to conven ( īre ) ( see convene) + -tus suffix of v. action; r. ME covent < AF < ML, as above

Dinneen has:

CLOCHAR; AIR, {plural} {idem}, {masculine} a stone structure, {especially} a convent;
a stone church, eg, CLOCHAR DÚILIGH, St. Dolough's near Dublin; a stony region or shore

Is PUL referring to the building or the community, I wonder?

Perhaps it has to do with his ecclesiastical education, in Latin and English. Which are more similar?

diaconus
deacon
deagánach

sacrastia
sacrasty/sacraistí
eardhamh

conventus
convent/conbhint
clochar

I wonder if today's priests who speak Irish use any of the bottom terms in everyday conversation, or sermons.

(Message edited by seánw on January 06, 2011)

quote:

Bear in mind also that the Vatican and its agents and fellow travellers - apart from PUL, Dinneen and a handful of other clerics - were instrumental in anglicising Irish-speaking Ireland and native speakers were often condemned and ridiculed from the pulpit for speaking their own language.

Are there any published studies of this or any recorded incidences of people being condemned and ridiculed?

Ná cothaigh an troll áirithe sin, a Thaidhgín.

I deleted my message as Aonghus' message indicated it would be trolling to reply!

(Message edited by corkirish on January 06, 2011)

Maith go leor.

quote:

Are there any published studies of this or any recorded incidences of people being condemned and ridiculed?

Both Neans Bean Uí Riagáin of Ring, Co Waterford and Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil of Clear Island, Co Cork (page 135-136) speak of the strong anglicising influence of the clergy in their respective areas. Máirtín Ó Cadhain also speaks of this in Cois Fhairrge but I can't find the exact page number at the moment. I think Brian Ó Cuív may also make reference to the hostility of the Vatican towards the language in Irish Dialects and Irish-speaking Districts. A man I know from An Spidéal - who is around 70 years of age or so - has also told me of the hostility towards the language from RC clerics when he was growing up - in an independent Irish state.

Neans Bean Uí Riagáin says of one Roman Catholic cleric who despised the Irish language: "Bhí sé le maiomh ag Réagáin go bhfuair sé barra na bróige ó shagart a bhí ag iarraidh deire a chur leis na ranganna Gaelainne. Is in ainneoin na sagart an t-am san a coimeádadh an Ghaelainn beo". An Linn Bhuí, Uimhir 4, page 5.

I also have an old school history book from the 1930s at home written by a Roman Catholic cleric in which he gushes praise on the newly-founded Irish state. He claims that the primary focus of the "national struggle" was not - as one would imagine - to free the country of its colonial yoke - but to "save and protect the faith", i.e. Roman Catholicism. He then says that the new state having duly "saved the faith" was now in a position to save "those things of lesser importance" among which he lists the Irish language. Clearly, holy water and rosary beads are of greater import than the indigenous language of Ireland if this individual is to be believed.

That said, there are RC clergy who did outstanding work for the language: Dinneen, PUL, Sheehan and others often in the face of hostility from the hierarchy.

As a Catholic, this wouldn't be the first thing that can be laid at the feet of the hierarchy which is/was a complete disaster. With that said, I doubt that such a thing was "the Vatican", as though the anti-Irish language policy came from some encyclical, as the new evangelization of the Irish, post-Elizabeth I. All of humanity has grown to understand more clearly language and its link with culture, and the tide of destruction. While we not excuse the worst cases of bigotry, we can understand that some (many?) may have acted out of ignorance of the true toll of their collective actions, or a case of over-zealous support for causes outside of their mission from Christ. It's the same story in many places. For instance, the Indians of America. I think most Americans regret the destruction of the Indian cultures in the name of ____ (fill in). I hope we've all grown from such disasters.

I received just today from an Irish bookshop "Notes on irish words and expression" by PUL - a collation of all his comments on various works arranged alphabetically, collated from the Cork newspapers.

He said there that the word conbhint "was used by the Four Masters" - and so was good Irish.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G505000/

A seventeenth-century criticism of Keating's 'Foras Feasa ar Éirinn'

quote:

Ag so an t-aois ealadhna lér glanadh na leabhair sin mailli re beathadhaibh agus re naomhsheanchos na naomh Éironnach, mur atá Cochoigríche Ó Cléirigh, agus Míchél Ó Cléirigh, an bráthair mionúr as Conbhint Manistreach Dhúin na nGall,

But this usage clearly means community, not the building.

Aonghus I suspect this is another example where Gaeltacht people don't use the supposed Irish word.

But it is now an Irish word. Just because it is a loan word doesn't mean that it isn't Irish. Is seomra an Irish word ... ?

Come again?

"Clochar" is commonly used - now. But I think it is a recent word in the sense of a convent of nuns.

Remember that most convents would have been built/founded in the 19th century, after the penal laws.

Me or Corkirish?

Samples from the Nua-chorpas: (native speakers)

D' fhéadfadh mná rialta an chlochair éirí as a gcuid paidreoireachta ... go gcaithfidís freastal anois ar na sluaite ocracha a bheadh ag teacht ar oilithreachtaí chuig an scrín - cruit orthu á gcoinneáil feedáilte le chips agus hotdogs ... Scuainne pruibíní gorma rent-a-loo timpeall na cearnóige le coinneáil glanta sciúrtha ar mhaithe le cúrsaí sláinte . -- Micheál Ó Conghaile

Ní raibh san fhuinneog dhorcha ach clog mór den seandéanamh , é stoptha ; clog nach bhfeicfeá a leithéid in aon áit sa lá atá inniu ann mura mbeadh fágtha i gcúinne i seanchlochar dúnta mná rialta nó stóráilte i siopa earraí seandachta . -- Micheál Ó Conghaile

De réir na scéime sin chuaigh Julia chuig na Doiminiceánaigh i gCill Mhantáin , Annie go Clochar na Trócaire san Inbhear Mór agus chuaigh Lil agus Delia , máthair Bhreandáin , chuig Clochar na Trócaire i nDún Dealgan . -- Liam Mac Con Iomaire

These are all Connacht, but I haven't done an exhaustive search. I must work out whether the interface can select only ones tagged with "Cainteoir Dúchais"

quote:

Me or Corkirish?

Corkirish: you slipped in when I wasn't looking!

Well Ó Conghaile has feedáilte, chips and hotdogs there as well as rent-a-loo (tigh an asail ar iasacht!)

But he is indisputably a native speaker.

quote:

...a convent of nuns...

Or did you mean a "coven" of nuns?

Only kidding of course. Some of my best friends...

(Message edited by Hugo on January 06, 2011)

Sorry. Double post.

(Message edited by Hugo on January 06, 2011)

In our own time with the introduction of the vernacular many priests rose brilliantly to the occasion and celebrated Mass in Irish not only in the Gaeltacht but throughout the Dublin diocese where one Mass a week was celebrated in Irish in every parish church.

Others adopted the "Sure they all know English" attitude and didn't bother, especially in the weaker Gaeltacht parishes where Irish-speakers might only occupy part of the area covered by the parish.

At the same time young Irish clerics were being coached in Yoruba, Hausa, Ibo, Kikuyu and so on in order to be acceptable to their parishioners on the missions. Even there they followed the British colonial flag and brought "civilisation" to the natives or ministered to Irish emigrants abroad.

Poor Ireland. Now it is probably too late. Some orders notably the Franciscans and the Christian Brothers did trojan work in teaching and studying Irish. Perhaps this is one of the causes of them all being tarred with the brush of scandal which they do not deserve. The virulence with which the latter are attacked puzzles me. The Christian Brothers gave good education to poor people at a time when only the rich could afford the posh "anglo" colleges. Many of us owe them a debt of gratitude, especially those of us who would not be fluent in Irish now if it were not for them.