Tabharfaidh mé níos mó aire sa todhchaí chun gach focail a coimeád soiléir chun é a leamh agus a thuiscint.

I don't know what todhchaí means, but I think the end bit is wrong. Soileir le léamh agus le tuiscint.

chun go gcoiméadtar gach focal soiléir?

There's nothing wrong with the word "todhchaí" but if I understand correctly it is deemed to be a school Irish word used only by learners and school teachers and only rarely used nowadays in any of the Gaeltachtaí. This is how I would say the above phrase:

Tabharfaidh mé níos mó/breis aire feasta/uaidh seo amach chun gach focal a choimeád soiléir d'fhonn é a léamh agus a thuiscint.

Using "chun" twice is not a mortal sin, but I think it better to use a different phrase in the final clause such as "d'fhonn" or "le" for clarity's sake. Note that the singular form of the noun follows "gach" and watch out for the síneadh fada in "léamh".

There are other ways of course of saying "I will take (greater) care": beidh mé níos airí/cáiréisí feasta chun . . ., bead ar m'aire feasta . . . "

Actually, I think CorkIrish is right; the last bit should read:

"chun go gcoimeádtar/gcoimeádfar gach focal soiléir le léamh agus le tuiscint" or "lena léamh agus lena thuiscint".

How about:

Tabharfaidh mé aire amach anseo gach focal a scríobh go soiléir nó go mbeidh sé éasca a léamh agus a thuiscint.

(Agus mé i mbun scríbhneoireachta) Déanfaidh mé iarracht/mo dhícheall amach anseo gach focal a dhéanamh soiléir agus éasca a léamh agus a thuiscint dá réir.

(Message edited by sineadw on January 05, 2011)

Re: genitive after gach, you may meet a genitive where the phrase follows "chun" in older forms of Irish, but Carmanach is right on what would be found today.

In PUL's translation of Matthew 10 (edited I think by Gearóid Ó Nualláin, who was a conservative influence probably), we read:

quote:

agus do ghlaoidh sé chuige a dháréag deisgiobul, agus thug sé dhóibh cómhacht ar na h-annspridíbh, chun iad do chur amach, agus chun gach galair agus breóiteachta do leigheas

Niamh has:

quote:

do chuir Brian chuige síos adhmad agus clocha agus aol agus saoir agus lucht ceárd, agus gach aon chóir a bhí riachtanach chun gach díobhála d’ár dhein na Lochlanaigh do leigheas

But the avoiding of the genitive after chun gach was part of the reason I thought it better to redraft the sentence into the autonomous.

Am I right in saying that "amach anseo" actually means "later on", "at a later time" rather than "henceforth", "in future"?

Carmanach, I think Sineadw may have misheard or misremembered "as so amach" or presumably "as seo amach" in the Conemara - I am not sure amach anseo exists.

Amach anseo does exist, and I have seen it used in the meaning of in the future (American English).

quote:

Am I right in saying that "amach anseo" actually means "later on", "at a later time" rather than "henceforth", "in future"?

Sin an tuiscint a bheadh agamsa air, seachas "as seo amach" (henceforth)

Maidir le "Todhchaí", tá eagraíocht den ainm "Todhchaí na Gaeltachta" ann i gCorca Dhuibhne; ach tá amhras orm an úsáidfí in áit "as seo amach" nó a leithéidí é.

I have one example in my notes of "amach anso" from Aistí ó Chléire, page 23:

"Nach mór an diabhal ná fuil ár gcuid ban ag lorg aitheantais ar an dteangain nó ón dteangain mar thús le cearta ban. Mura bhfuil fós beidh amach anso le cúnamh an tsaoil má leogann Dia leo é"

It's not entirely clear from that whether it means "at some later time" or "henceforth". Perhaps the "anso" suggest that it is in fact "henceforth".

Not sure: the "le cúnamh an tsaoil má leogann Dia leo é" suggests a certain remoteness to me (and forlornness).

'Amach anseo' most definitely exists and I've always thought of it as meaning 'from now on'.

Uaidh seo amach- is that any different really?

To me "uaidh/as seo amach" definitely means starting now, whereas "amach anseo" means "sometime in future"

Here is one example I found in the Corpas by Joe Steve Ó Neachtain. Can safely take from it that since it involves house prices and demand it has the 'in the future' type meaning.


"D'fháisc sí Seáinín isteach go ceanúil léi os comhair athar agus máthar ag smaoineamh ar na láithreacha breátha tí a bhí cois an bhóthair agus a mbeadh éileamh agus luach dá réir orthu amach anseo"

Some examples of "amach anseo"


http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=amach+anseo

* Nua-Chorpas na hÉireann
* Amais: 2299
(But most seemed to be meamráineis; I only found on "natural" example - but I didn't check all 2299)

quote:

Agus iad ceolmhar , cosúil leat fhéin . Bhuel , tá siad ag seinnt ar an fhidil , agus ag cur tús leis , mar a déarfá . Ag iarraidh an dúshraith a leagan ag an am seo ina saoil . Mar sílimid gur deas an rud é páistí a bheith ábalta , bhuel , ceol a fhoghlaim , agus an dúshraith a leagan ag an am seo . So , beidh sé ina chuidiú acu amach anseo.

[Tamalt Comhrá, RnaG, native speaker]

---

BTW: "feasta" would convey the same meaning as uaidh seo amach.
For:
Tabharfaidh mé níos mó aire sa todhchaí chun gach focail a coimeád soiléir chun é a leamh agus a thuiscint.

I'd say:
Tabharfaidh mé breis aire feasta, le go mbeidh gach focail soiléir ar mhaithe le soléiteacht agus sothuiscint.

Uaidh seo amach (Amais: 41):
all from "- Micheál Ó Ráighne, Nach Iomaí Cor sa Saol"
' Bhuel , a Mhama , ' a dúirt sé , ' beidh Deirdre ag fanacht sa mbaile uaidh seo amach .
' M' anam , nach rachaidh mise siar chuici uaidh seo amach
' Tabhair aire mhaith duit féin uaidh seo amach , ' a dúirt sé , ' agus ná bac leis na cearca .
' Bíodh nó ná bíodh , ' a dúirt sí , ' ní bheidh Nainín Mháirtín ag cur as do cheachtar againn uaidh seo amach .
Uaidh seo amach , a Sarah , ' a dúirt sí , ' ná tar in aice mo dhorais-se ach oiread , agus ná tabhair aon deoir uisce as mo thobar .

These clearly mean "from now on"

As seo amach: (# Amais: 540)

Ní insíonn an bhailchríoch a cuireadh ar an lánúin , mar caithfimid a dhul ar an bhfarraige mhór agus leanúint den scéal , mar is faoin bhanríon agus an mac altrama atá an scéal as seo amach .

Teideal Mac Mic Iascaire Buí Luimnigh
Údar Micheál Mac Ruairí
Cainteoir Dúchais? is ea

"le soléiteacht agus sothuiscint"-->le soléiteacht agus le sothuiscint

Glacaim go fonnmhar leis an gcoigeartú! Mea culpa!

'Amach anseo' has the meaning of 'in the future', 'in future' and 'from now on'. It depends on the context/sentence.

'Uaidh seo amach' is more or less the same and also meaning, just more loosely, 'in the future' as in the context of the first sentence by Skye. Amach anseo and uaidh seo anseo are both grand for the original sentence.

Sinéad, regarding the example you gave above:

"D'fháisc sí Seáinín isteach go ceanúil léi os comhair athar agus máthar ag smaoineamh ar na láithreacha breátha tí a bhí cois an bhóthair agus a mbeadh éileamh agus luach dá réir orthu amach anseo"

"Amach anso" there would appear to mean "at some later time" and not "henceforth" which was my original point. Ó Dónaill has "later on" for "amach anso".

'At some later time' can easily equate to 'in the future'.

I don't think it needs to be analysed to death through English either.

>I don't think it needs to be analysed to death through English either.
-----------------

Sinéadw, to learn Irish you need to analyse it through English. Discussing it in Irish wouldn't change anything.

I didn't see the entry in Ó Dónaill's dictionary for "amach anso", but if that is "later on" and "as so amach" is "from this time forward" I would be inclined to accept that. It makes more sense for a start.

It can be very awkward looking up strange phrases, and for some reason a lot of awkward phrases can be found in Dinneen's dictionary but not Dónaill's. So you need to look in both.

Now they are compiling a new dictionary, I hope it will be electronic and free.

quote:

At some later time can easily equate to in the future.

But that's precisely the point I'm making, that it means "at some time in the future" and not "henceforth". You're claiming that it means both which is not at all apparent from the example you gave above.

(Message edited by carmanach on January 06, 2011)

The 'sa todhchaí' in the original sentence was likely an effort to translate 'in future', yes?

Well amach anseo covers that meaning; out from here. Not necessarily 'later on'.

quote:

Sinéadw, to learn Irish you need to analyse it through English. Discussing it in Irish wouldn't change anything.

You could analyse it using both languages. There is no reason why Irish could not be used to do so. As for analysing things "to death", isn't that exactly why we're here; to understand and learn?

Seánw said "in the future" [American usage]

I am not sure if we make a distinction they don't in American English, but we do have "in the future" in British English.

In future: as so amach [from now on]

In the future: amach anso [later on]

What will Britain be like in the future? is totally correct GB English. But "what will Britain be like in future?" doesn't make any sense, but as Seánw indicated, it could reflect dialectal usages.

Cad a dhéanfaidh muid feasta gan achrann?

quote:

Well amach anseo covers that meaning; out from here. Not necessarily 'later on'.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but where is your evidence for that?

David, I wasn't talking about 'discussing' this through English.

I meant analysing 'amach anseo' to death and finding all the English equivalents. I was using that phrase in the context of Skye's sentence. It is being picked to death.

quote:

It is being picked to death.

Right, so according to you trying to ascertain the precise sense of a particular word or phrase is "picking it to death". One wonders then what exactly is the purpose of this forum?

Yes Ó Dónaill gives 'later on' but then where does that leave this example (and others) by a native speaker which does not mean 'later on'

Féadfaidh mé na cíosanna a ardú ar na tionóntaí amach anseo beag beann ar agóid i m' aghaidh : Pádraig G. Ó Laighin

My point is that amach anseo does not only mean 'later on'.

quote:

I am not sure if we make a distinction they don't in American English, but we do have "in the future" in British English.

I didn't know that. Thanks for that. So Americans don't have "in future" in the sense of "henceforth". Interesting.

Do Americans seriously not have 'in future' for 'henceforth' / 'from now on'.

Any American here able to verify this?

Carmanach, you said yourself the 'anseo' helps show the henceforth meaning of amach anseo.

quote:

Féadfaidh mé na cíosanna a ardú ar na tionóntaí amach anseo beag beann ar agóid i m' aghaidh : Pádraig G. Ó Laighin

Again, it is not entirely clear what "amach anseo" means there: when circumstances change in some way in a few weeks, months time, he will raise the rents OR he will raise the rents henceforth? It can either mean both or one or the other; what we need is a reference defining it one way or the other.

quote:

Carmanach, you said yourself the 'anseo' helps show the henceforth meaning of amach anseo.

Indeed, I did but I am not a native speaker and I was just guessing and without solid evidence, my own guesswork matters little. What we need is a definite reference as to how native Gaeltacht speakers perceive its meaning.

Why I put up the Ó Laighin quote is because there, amach anseo cannot only mean 'later on', so therefore I am not happy with Ó Dónaill just giving 'later on' for amach anseo.

'Out from now' is what I am going on in understanding amach anseo. And it's not that I'm literally translating in case that's put at my doorstep. But out from now gives you:
henceforth, from here on out, later on, at a later time, at some later time, in future, in the future etc.

(Message edited by sineadw on January 06, 2011)

Sinéad, what you or I assume to be so is irrelevant as Irish is not our language. What is required is solid evidence from good native Gaeltacht speakers.

More context:

AN BÁILLE : Sea , ag stad ag na geataí ... ag fanacht ann ar feadh scaithimh go ciúin ... agus ag imeacht leo ansin . Ní fhaca mé a leithéid de ghníomhú riamh cheana .

AN DUINE UASAL : Eagla orthu roimh na gunnaí . Sea ! Cinnte ... eagla roimh na gunnaí atá orthu ... na meatacháin ... na meatacháin . Sin é an rud len iad a choimeád faoi smacht . Nár mhaith an beartas dom na gunnaí sin a cheannach ! Féadfaidh mé na cíosanna a ardú ar na tionóntaí amach anseo beag beann ar agóid i m' aghaidh . Féach , imígí libh chun na beairice ar an bpointe agus abair leo nach bhfuil gá leis na saighdiúirí ar chor ar bith . Féadfaimid muid féin a chosaint ar na bligeaird daoine .


So I think this shows that the possibility of raising the rents is contingent on first buying the guns.
This to me brings it down on the side of "some time in future" rather than henceforth: in particular as raising rents is not a continuous activity, in the same manner as choosing one's words for clarity of reading and understanding (the original posters intent) is.

Of course the solid evidence comes from good native speakers, always. And I'd be grateful to be put in the know by some right now!! (I forgot to take my lunch an hour ago) :)

I didn't say that the Ó Laighin quote was an example of amach anseo as meaning 'henceforth' though. Rather since O Dónaill had been mentioned it was to illustrate how insufficient 'later on' is in explaining the meaning.

I think I'll leave it here as I have offered all that I am able. Slán go fóill

Enjoy your lunch!

Beidh do lóin agat amach anso, is dócha, a Shinéid!

The form that Seánw mentioned, 'amach anseo' is commonly referred to as a more idiomatic way of saying 'sa todhchaí' to learners. I couldn't say when and where I first encountered it, though my Oxford Irish dictionary has it, and my teacher (a fluent Ulster Irish speaker) affirmed it when I was with Oideas Gael in Donegal a few months ago. As a learner, it's the first form that comes to my mind when I'm speaking.

Admittedly, Ó Dónaill only has the meaning 'later on' for this phrase, and it disturbs me a bit that fluent and native speakers clearly don't recognise it - learners would hope that in learning a basic phrase, it'd be something that a native speaker could actually understand!!! Oh well... :)

- Robert

The difficulty here is that the English is unclear:

"in future" (and "sa todhchaí") can mean either "sometime in future" for discreet actions or "henceforth" for continuous or repeated ones.

I would understand "amach anseo" as meaning sometime in future (which includes "later on"), and "as/uaidh seo amach" or "feasta" as henceforth.

Usually the context will make it perfectly clear.

@Sineadw:

"Do Americans seriously not have 'in future' for 'henceforth' / 'from now on'.

Any American here able to verify this?"

Yes, we have "in future" meaning "henceforth." But, much like "whom" vs. "who," it is not in common usage by younger folk. You will only hear it from people who lean more toward things like knowing when to properly use "I" or "me" in a sentence, etc.