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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (January-February) » Archive through January 13, 2011 » Cur isteach agus amach « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 549
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 05:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is í comhairle a thabharfainnse dhuit, a Thaidhg,” ar sise, “ná gan aon chur isteach ná amach a bheith agat ar an scéal a thuilleadh an fhaid ná déanfaidh éinne aon chur isteach ná amach ort mar gheall air.

Is "cur isteach is amach" a standard phrase? Or should it be understood in separate parts? Eg cur isteach - interfere, and cur amach - to say something, express yourself on the subject?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11030
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 06:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"aon chur isteach amach" is a standard phrase.

It emphasises: A bit like "no interference at all, at all"

(Message edited by aonghus on January 05, 2011)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11031
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 06:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"cur amach ar X" on its own means knowledge of X.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 564
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 06:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lovely expression David and something wise people practice! So say a man wanted to ask his brother out for a drink one night but the brother had an illness, the man might decide not to ask him out for the drink in case he'd catch a cold or his illness would progress and he would get the blame for it!

I'm sure you've heard of the phrase 'níor chuir sé isteach nó amach orm'- it didn't bother me at all.. didn't affect me one way or another.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11032
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 06:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"ná" and "nó" are synonyms in this phrase.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 550
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 06:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Aonghus, it has to be ná in this exact phrase, as it means "nor" - following a previous negative phrase (gan...).

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11033
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 07:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

ná [cónasc]
= nó in abairt dhiúltach (níl mac ná iníon aige).

nó [cónasc]
cón focal a úsáidtear idir dhá rogha (fear nó bean; dubh nó bán).

(Message edited by aonghus on January 05, 2011)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11034
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 07:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post


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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 936
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Aonghus, it has to be ná in this exact phrase, as it means "nor" - following a previous negative phrase (gan...).



Precisely. "ní dhein sé aon chuir isteach NÁ amach orm".

In Corca Dhuibhne, "cuir isteach" has come to be understood as a single word in phrases such "ní chuir sé ao' chuisteach orm" at least. Note the loss of the r in the verbal noun "cuir".

"Ní chuireas isteach ná amach air" = I didn't interfere with him in any way, is a common expression.

"Ní chuireas chugat ná uait" means the same thing.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11035
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 09:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ceist tuisceana: (Táim beagán dúr inniu):

An amhlaidh:
a) go bhfuil "níor chuir sé isteach nó amach orm" mícheart

b) nach bhfuil sé sa chaint ó dheas

c) go bhfuil ciall eile leis

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 938
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 10:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

An amhlaidh:
a) go bhfuil "níor chuir sé isteach nó amach orm" mícheart

b) nach bhfuil sé sa chaint ó dheas

c) go bhfuil ciall eile leis



Bhuel, ní dh'airíos riamh "ní chuir sé isteach NÓ amach orm" agus ni fheaca i scríbhinn é ach chomh beag ach dh'fhéadfadh go mbeadh a leithéid ann i mball éintig. Níl ach "isteach NÁ amach" agam im chuid nótaí féin ó Chorca Dhuibhne agus ó Chléire. Pé ar domhan é nó nách é, b'ait liom "nó" in ionad "ná" i gclásal briathair dhiúltaigh.

Ina dhiaidh sin féin, cím an méid seo aiges na Bráithre (26.4):

26.4 Cuirtear na rialacha roimhe seo i bhfeidhm i gcás fochlásail chomhordaitheacha freisin, ach gur féidir ná a úsáid in ionad nó má tá cor diúltach san uaschlásal: níl a fhios agam cé thú féin ná cad é an gnó atá agat díom; is deacair a rá cá bhfuil sé ná cad atá á dhéanamh aige. Úsáidtear ná in ionad nó go minic mar sin idir dhá chlásal neamhchúiseacha: cibé duine a rachaidh ná nach rachaidh, rachaidh mise.
Ní úsáidtear ná in ionad nó idir dhá chlásal ainmfhoclacha dar tús cé acu: níl a fhios agam cé acu a thiocfaidh sé nó nach dtiocfaidh.

Is inspéise gur ndeirid siad "gur féidir ná a úsáid in ionad nó" ach ní dóigh liom go mbaineann san go díreach le habairt do shórt "Ní chuir sé isteach ná amach orm".

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11037
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 10:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"isteach ná amach" a bheadh agamsa freisin: ach ó tharla gur luaigh Sinéad an leagan eile...

Chaith mé súil ar an gcorpas:

"agus an áit nach bhfuil duine ar bith ag cur isteach nó amach ort ... " . -- Lillis Ó Laoire, Ar Chreag i lár na Farraige

Níor chuir iargúltacht na háite isteach nó amach uirthi . -- Pádraig Ó Baoighill, Ceann Tìre/Earraghàidheal Ár gComharsanaigh Gaelacha

(De réir na sonraí atá sa chorpas, is cainteoirí dúchais an dís sin)

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 940
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 10:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is ait liomsa é, caithfidh mé a rá. Ní foláir nó gur nós Olltach é. A Lughaidh? Cad é do mheas féin air seo?

(Message edited by carmanach on January 05, 2011)

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 566
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I mentioned that phrase just as it is so well-known, wasn't even thinking about the "nó" in it. The Corpas has many examples of the nó in this context but twice as many with the ná, and as we know the corpas records include both native and non native speakers.

Leaning towards the ná now though. Frig ye :)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11040
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I picked the two examples from native speakers: both, as Ailín pointed out, Ulstermen.

I'd say though that both are correct; but that "ná" is commoner. It'll be interesting to hear what Lughaidh has to say.

nó nó ná? Ná bíodh drogall ort nó ná ná a úsáid!

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 567
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

..agus hú nó há á chur díot :)

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 945
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Leaning towards the ná now though. Frig ye :)



LOL!

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 568
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 01:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is Bríd around too? Would be good just to hear what she says for this

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 112
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I'd say "...isteach ná amach..."
and yes it is a common expression.

but "nó" doesn't sound wrong either.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 570
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 05:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks Bríd!



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