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Paploo
Member Username: Paploo
Post Number: 85 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:02 am: | |
What's the difference between "Cad atá ar siúl agat?" and "Céard tá á dhéanamh agat?" Is it just a dialectual difference? If so is the first one Munster and the second one Connacht? How would you say it in Ulster? Also, I am confused about when to use cad/céard/cén. When is each used? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 875 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:11 am: | |
There's no big difference really. In Munster you will also hear "Cad é athá agat á dhéanamh" or "Cad é at(h)ánn/at(h)ás tú a dhéanamh?" The only dialectal difference I can see there is cad vs céard. Cad alone is used in Munster; céard in Connachta and Ulster. Cén can be used pretty much anywhere, I imagine. Cad é athá ar bun/cois/siúl agat? = What are you at? Cad é an phóirseáil athá ansan oraibh? = What are ye rooting, rummaging for there? Cé na rudaí/cad iad na rudaí úd a dúirt sé? |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 482 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:25 am: | |
Well, first things first, what type of Irish are you learning, Paploo? |
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Paploo
Member Username: Paploo
Post Number: 86 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:43 am: | |
Well this might actually be a problem with the way I'm learning it. I'm using Rosetta stone which is Munster Irish and I take a class that is teaching Connemara Irish. That's how I ran into the two phrases earlier. "Cad atá ar siúl agat?" was from Rosetta Stone and "Céard tá á dhéanamh agat?" was from Buntús Cainte which is what we started with in the class. I'm not sure if this is a bad idea or not. I figured I'd learn as much Irish as I can and when I actually had a pretty good grasp on it I would start focus on using one dialect more than another (preferrably Donegal Irish actually because my family in Ireland speaks that). I'd like to hear anyones opinion on whether they think this method is a good idea or if I should just pick one dialect and stick with it. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10941 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:46 am: | |
quote:I'd like to hear anyones opinion on whether they think this method is a good idea or if I should just pick one dialect and stick with it. You will find that participants here have strong opinions on this, many of them contradictory. Discussions on this rarely generate much light, but plenty of heat. |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 483 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:04 am: | |
I don't think Rosetta will be strict Munster. Maybe a Munster-influenced form of Irish, but not too deeply dialectal either. "what are you doing?" is "cad tá á dhéanamh agat?", literally "what is being done by you?". You can also order it: cad tá agat á dhéanamh? This form would be accepted everywhere. céard? as a word for "what?" derives from "cé rud", "what thing". While this form comes from the Connemara, it is also widely known and accepted. So you can say "cad" or "céard" and they are both right. Ar siúl - is slightly different, in that it is not a literal translation. It means "in motion, in progress". What have you got going? What are you up to? As far as I know this is not a dialectal form - it just means "what are you up to?" instead of "what are you doing?" So it's not a question of one area saying "á dhéanamh agat" and the others not saying that, but saying "ar siúl agat" instead - they are slightly difference in nuance. So these can be mixed-and-matched: South: cad tá á dhéanamh agat? West (and North, maybe?): céard tá á dhéanamh agat? South: cad tá ar siúl agat? West (and North, maybe?): céard tá ar siúl agat? It don't actually know what the Donegal forms are. I must have come across them in Tús Maith, but I can't recall them off hand. But Lughaidh here is passionate about Ulster Irish and I expect he will be delighted to give you all the deep dialectal Donegal forms. You need to decide on cad vs. céard, and also tá vs. atá. I don't think atá is actually heard in full anywhere, and it is probably 'tá everywhere - with atá only in the Standard Irish - but Lughaidh could well correct me on that. I think it is a good idea to focus on one dialect, but if you are lucky enough to be in the US, a long way from Ireland, and have Connemara Irish classes nearby, it would seem a shame to waste that opportunity, so maybe you are better learning a mix. |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 335 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:22 am: | |
"céard in Connachta and Ulster." Céard is unknown in Ulster, will be understood if the speaker listens to RnaG. |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 487 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:26 am: | |
I think in Ulster, "cad" is "cad é", pronounced "goidé". something like: goidé 'tá dhéanamh agat? goidé 'tá ar siúl agat? would probably be right, but wait for Lughaidh's confirmation. |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 336 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:30 am: | |
BTW - I have heard 'Cad' in Mayo - I was quite surprised! |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 878 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:35 am: | |
quote:I don't think atá is actually heard in full anywhere, and it is probably 'tá everywhere Are you talking about relative clauses? Well, that's not true, not in CD anyway. Certainly after "conas", the norm is tá but that's just one form. |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 488 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:45 am: | |
Ailín, have you heard "cad tá" or "cad atá" or both? And in what proportions, and if the latter is heard occasionally, is it simply influence from schooling? I think the relative particle is there (although it is a moot point as the relative particle is an analogical development in the past few hundred years anyway), but dropped out: cad 'tá, as it were. I note that Nils Holmer said the Clare form was: conas athá thu? Pronounced /konəs ə'hɑ: hə/. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 879 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:10 am: | |
níl a bhac ar an bhfear athá ar an dtaobh san an áit a líona le clocha nú adhmad chun gan leogaint di a chuid féin a chathamh (SAL:18) cé chomh milis is athá an bua?; Mícheál Ó Sé(SD:18/9/2006) Aon rud athá fé chleathacha an tí; anything within the confines of the house, (GCD:352) Agus dro-chôrtha ar thig nuair atháthas á dhéanamh dá dtiteadh an siminé; (SAL:25) Más muar leis an scot athá á éileamh air ní gá dho dhíol ach an t-airgead bóna, agus leogaint don fhear atá ag éileamh an scuit dul chun dlí leis ’na thaobh; (SAL:16) an fhaid athá aon chuimhne agamsa air bhí na cheithre cinn ann, (GCD:785) sé an naomh athá a' baint leis a' Rinn ach Naomh San Nioclás (Neans Bean Uí Riagáin, An Rinn) an séipéal, mar athá sé anois, ar an mbóthar thuaig; (SAL:8), I mbéilic charraige atháid siad; They lie in a rock cavern, (SAL:22) Ní fheadar cadé an brí athá le hÁth na Croí; I don’t know what Áth na Croí means, (SAL:8), an seomra athá amuigh chun tosaigh - Mícheál Ó Sé (SD), an diamhracht (/v'/) athá ag baint leis an áit = the darkness, mysteriousness, eeriness, bewitchment - Mícheál Ó Sé(SD: 25/8/2006) SAL = Seanchas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse SD = An Saol ó Dheas, R na G GCD = Ó Sé |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 489 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:15 am: | |
Ailín, these aren't after "cad". I know the relative form of tá is atá or athá, but it is not generally heard after cad: cad tá (written cad 'tá in PUL's works). I'm only taking about the C-question words: cé tá (cé thá), cad tá, conas tá - I don't think an "a" can be heard in these. I'm not claiming there is generally no relative form of atá, ONLY after cé, cad and conas... |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 880 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:18 am: | |
Chuireas an cheist “Cad tá suas?”; I asked (them) the question “What’s going on?”, (CBL:TÓC), cad tá tú ag déanamh? (AC)(leathanach = ??) cad tá siad a dhéanamh thiar? (GCD:687) "Cuirtear cad díreach roimh an bhfíorláithreach tá agus roimh gach foirm de deir, agus i gnáthach go mbáitear an d: cad tá á bharra agat?, Cad tá 'na thosach?, N'fheadar ca' deirtars leotha anois". (GCD: 694) CBL:TÓC = Cartlann Bhóthar na Léinsí, Tomás Ó Cinnéide, An Ghráig, Corca Dhuibhne AC = Aistí ó Chléire, Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 490 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:20 am: | |
This "conas atá tú" business - is a clear sign of Standard Irish, although possibly derived from the now-defunct Clare forms. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 881 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:20 am: | |
Sorry, I thought you were referring to atá in all contexts. I have included examples of cad + tá above. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 882 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:25 am: | |
Of conas Ó Sé says (708): "Ní bhíonn an mhír choibhneasta roimh an bhfoirm láithreach, tá, de ghnáth, m.sh. conas tá do mháthair ó shin?, conas tánn tú? ach is féidir í a úsáid, m.sh. féachaint conas athá sé, conas athá sí? conas athánn sibh?" I've heard both from CD speakers and I see now that Ó Sé confirms that. I don't think it has anything to do with schools or Clare Irish. |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 974 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 11:26 am: | |
Paploo, do what works for you. Your situation is interesting. I would stick with imitating your teachers as the core of your study. You want to, however, note what goes with what, at least in some circumstances. People are talking with one another from different dialects, but don't mix it too much or it just sounds silly. Certainly having speaking relatives is a boon. I think over time you'll naturally start to favor particular uses, and there will be more cohension. Familiarity with the language also increases your sense of what goes together and what seems convoluted. Also, cad é and céard are available in Ulster, but I would think cad é an rud ... would be more common than céard, at least from my experience. Best of luck! I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. |
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Hugo
Member Username: Hugo
Post Number: 91 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 04:01 pm: | |
As Ggn said above "Céard" isn't used in Ulster. "Cad é atá tú a dhéanamh" would be the usual Donegal way (pronounced "caidé/goidé" - and sometimes written "caidé" informally, rather than "cad é"). (Message edited by Hugo on December 24, 2010) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3776 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2010 - 07:16 am: | |
And you often say "Dé 'tá tú 'dhéanamh?" :-) Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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The_lilywhites
Member Username: The_lilywhites
Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2010 - 05:56 am: | |
I would say: Céard tá tú dhéanamh |
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Brídmhór
Member Username: Brídmhór
Post Number: 108 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 09:46 pm: | |
In speech you can even abbrievate it further (although not gramatically correct) to - Céard 'tú dhéanamh? (Message edited by Brídmhór on December 29, 2010) |
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