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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2011 (January-February) » Archive through January 05, 2011 » Céard tá á dhéanamh agat? « Previous Next »

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Paploo
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Username: Paploo

Post Number: 85
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

What's the difference between "Cad atá ar siúl agat?" and "Céard tá á dhéanamh agat?"

Is it just a dialectual difference? If so is the first one Munster and the second one Connacht? How would you say it in Ulster?

Also, I am confused about when to use cad/céard/cén. When is each used?

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 875
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There's no big difference really. In Munster you will also hear "Cad é athá agat á dhéanamh" or "Cad é at(h)ánn/at(h)ás tú a dhéanamh?"

The only dialectal difference I can see there is cad vs céard. Cad alone is used in Munster; céard in Connachta and Ulster.

Cén can be used pretty much anywhere, I imagine.

Cad é athá ar bun/cois/siúl agat? = What are you at?

Cad é an phóirseáil athá ansan oraibh? = What are ye rooting, rummaging for there?

Cé na rudaí/cad iad na rudaí úd a dúirt sé?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 482
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well, first things first, what type of Irish are you learning, Paploo?

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Paploo
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Username: Paploo

Post Number: 86
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well this might actually be a problem with the way I'm learning it. I'm using Rosetta stone which is Munster Irish and I take a class that is teaching Connemara Irish. That's how I ran into the two phrases earlier. "Cad atá ar siúl agat?" was from Rosetta Stone and "Céard tá á dhéanamh agat?" was from Buntús Cainte which is what we started with in the class.

I'm not sure if this is a bad idea or not. I figured I'd learn as much Irish as I can and when I actually had a pretty good grasp on it I would start focus on using one dialect more than another (preferrably Donegal Irish actually because my family in Ireland speaks that).

I'd like to hear anyones opinion on whether they think this method is a good idea or if I should just pick one dialect and stick with it.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10941
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I'd like to hear anyones opinion on whether they think this method is a good idea or if I should just pick one dialect and stick with it.



You will find that participants here have strong opinions on this, many of them contradictory.

Discussions on this rarely generate much light, but plenty of heat.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 483
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I don't think Rosetta will be strict Munster. Maybe a Munster-influenced form of Irish, but not too deeply dialectal either.

"what are you doing?" is "cad tá á dhéanamh agat?", literally "what is being done by you?". You can also order it: cad tá agat á dhéanamh? This form would be accepted everywhere.

céard? as a word for "what?" derives from "cé rud", "what thing". While this form comes from the Connemara, it is also widely known and accepted. So you can say "cad" or "céard" and they are both right.

Ar siúl - is slightly different, in that it is not a literal translation. It means "in motion, in progress". What have you got going? What are you up to? As far as I know this is not a dialectal form - it just means "what are you up to?" instead of "what are you doing?" So it's not a question of one area saying "á dhéanamh agat" and the others not saying that, but saying "ar siúl agat" instead - they are slightly difference in nuance.

So these can be mixed-and-matched:

South: cad tá á dhéanamh agat?
West (and North, maybe?): céard tá á dhéanamh agat?
South: cad tá ar siúl agat?
West (and North, maybe?): céard tá ar siúl agat?


It don't actually know what the Donegal forms are. I must have come across them in Tús Maith, but I can't recall them off hand. But Lughaidh here is passionate about Ulster Irish and I expect he will be delighted to give you all the deep dialectal Donegal forms.

You need to decide on cad vs. céard, and also tá vs. atá. I don't think atá is actually heard in full anywhere, and it is probably 'tá everywhere - with atá only in the Standard Irish - but Lughaidh could well correct me on that.

I think it is a good idea to focus on one dialect, but if you are lucky enough to be in the US, a long way from Ireland, and have Connemara Irish classes nearby, it would seem a shame to waste that opportunity, so maybe you are better learning a mix.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 335
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"céard in Connachta and Ulster."

Céard is unknown in Ulster, will be understood if the speaker listens to RnaG.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 487
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I think in Ulster, "cad" is "cad é", pronounced "goidé".

something like: goidé 'tá dhéanamh agat? goidé 'tá ar siúl agat? would probably be right, but wait for Lughaidh's confirmation.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 336
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

BTW - I have heard 'Cad' in Mayo - I was quite surprised!

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 878
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I don't think atá is actually heard in full anywhere, and it is probably 'tá everywhere



Are you talking about relative clauses? Well, that's not true, not in CD anyway. Certainly after "conas", the norm is tá but that's just one form.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 488
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín, have you heard "cad tá" or "cad atá" or both? And in what proportions, and if the latter is heard occasionally, is it simply influence from schooling?

I think the relative particle is there (although it is a moot point as the relative particle is an analogical development in the past few hundred years anyway), but dropped out: cad 'tá, as it were.

I note that Nils Holmer said the Clare form was: conas athá thu? Pronounced /konəs ə'hɑ: hə/.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 879
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

níl a bhac ar an bhfear athá ar an dtaobh san an áit a líona le clocha nú adhmad chun gan leogaint di a chuid féin a chathamh (SAL:18)

cé chomh milis is athá an bua?; Mícheál Ó Sé(SD:18/9/2006)

Aon rud athá fé chleathacha an tí; anything within the confines of the house, (GCD:352)

Agus dro-chôrtha ar thig nuair atháthas á dhéanamh dá dtiteadh an siminé; (SAL:25)

Más muar leis an scot athá á éileamh air ní gá dho dhíol ach an t-airgead bóna, agus leogaint don fhear atá ag éileamh an scuit dul chun dlí leis ’na thaobh; (SAL:16)

an fhaid athá aon chuimhne agamsa air bhí na cheithre cinn ann, (GCD:785)

sé an naomh athá a' baint leis a' Rinn ach Naomh San Nioclás (Neans Bean Uí Riagáin, An Rinn)

an séipéal, mar athá sé anois, ar an mbóthar thuaig; (SAL:8),

I mbéilic charraige atháid siad; They lie in a rock cavern, (SAL:22)

Ní fheadar cadé an brí athá le hÁth na Croí; I don’t know what Áth na Croí means, (SAL:8),

an seomra athá amuigh chun tosaigh - Mícheál Ó Sé (SD),

an diamhracht (/v'/) athá ag baint leis an áit = the darkness, mysteriousness, eeriness, bewitchment - Mícheál Ó Sé(SD: 25/8/2006)

SAL = Seanchas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse
SD = An Saol ó Dheas, R na G
GCD = Ó Sé

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 489
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín, these aren't after "cad". I know the relative form of tá is atá or athá, but it is not generally heard after cad: cad tá (written cad 'tá in PUL's works). I'm only taking about the C-question words: cé tá (cé thá), cad tá, conas tá - I don't think an "a" can be heard in these. I'm not claiming there is generally no relative form of atá, ONLY after cé, cad and conas...

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 880
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Chuireas an cheist “Cad tá suas?”; I asked (them) the question “What’s going on?”, (CBL:TÓC),

cad tá tú ag déanamh? (AC)(leathanach = ??)

cad tá siad a dhéanamh thiar? (GCD:687)

"Cuirtear cad díreach roimh an bhfíorláithreach tá agus roimh gach foirm de deir, agus i gnáthach go mbáitear an d: cad tá á bharra agat?, Cad tá 'na thosach?, N'fheadar ca' deirtars leotha anois". (GCD: 694)

CBL:TÓC = Cartlann Bhóthar na Léinsí, Tomás Ó Cinnéide, An Ghráig, Corca Dhuibhne

AC = Aistí ó Chléire, Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 490
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

This "conas atá tú" business - is a clear sign of Standard Irish, although possibly derived from the now-defunct Clare forms.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 881
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Sorry, I thought you were referring to atá in all contexts. I have included examples of cad + tá above.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 882
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Of conas Ó Sé says (708): "Ní bhíonn an mhír choibhneasta roimh an bhfoirm láithreach, tá, de ghnáth, m.sh. conas tá do mháthair ó shin?, conas tánn tú? ach is féidir í a úsáid, m.sh. féachaint conas athá sé, conas athá sí? conas athánn sibh?"

I've heard both from CD speakers and I see now that Ó Sé confirms that. I don't think it has anything to do with schools or Clare Irish.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 974
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Paploo, do what works for you. Your situation is interesting. I would stick with imitating your teachers as the core of your study. You want to, however, note what goes with what, at least in some circumstances. People are talking with one another from different dialects, but don't mix it too much or it just sounds silly. Certainly having speaking relatives is a boon. I think over time you'll naturally start to favor particular uses, and there will be more cohension. Familiarity with the language also increases your sense of what goes together and what seems convoluted.

Also, cad é and céard are available in Ulster, but I would think cad é an rud ... would be more common than céard, at least from my experience.

Best of luck!

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Hugo
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Username: Hugo

Post Number: 91
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 04:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As Ggn said above "Céard" isn't used in Ulster.

"Cad é atá tú a dhéanamh" would be the usual Donegal way (pronounced "caidé/goidé" - and sometimes written "caidé" informally, rather than "cad é").

(Message edited by Hugo on December 24, 2010)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3776
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2010 - 07:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

And you often say "Dé 'tá tú 'dhéanamh?" :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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The_lilywhites
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Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2010 - 05:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I would say: Céard tá tú dhéanamh

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 108
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 09:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In speech you can even abbrievate it further (although not gramatically correct) to -

Céard 'tú dhéanamh?

(Message edited by Brídmhór on December 29, 2010)



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