quote:

Chaithfeadh do mháthair teitheadh lena hanam as an áit.”

“Mo mháthair!” arsa Sitric.

“Ár máthair, más ea,” arsa Amhlaoibh. “Ní beag di a bhfuil le fulang aici eatarthu.

1. The más ea here - "our mother, yes indeed", or "our mother, that's right"? The dictionary don't fit very well here...

2. The eatarthu - it is enough for her all she has bear "at their hands"?

quote:

Tá ocht míle fear ollamh aige, in arm is in éide. Dá nglaoití amáireach air d’fhéadfadh sé dhá mhíle fhear eile do chur leis an ocht míle sin. Ní dóigh leis go bhfuilimíd laeth láidir ár ndóthain. Tá scanradh Ghleanna Mháma fós air

3. Laeth láidir is a problem for me - it is either a typo for leath láidir "we are not half as strong enough as we need to be", or a way in old spelling to represent "laoch láidir" - we are not militarily strong enough?? Gleanna Mháma being the name of a battle where the Gaels gave the Norse a good kicking...

1. My reading of it would be that Sitric is reminding Olaf that she is also his mother, and that Olaf is saying OK, our mother so.

2. Among them would be my reading (Brian's court)

3. Typo seems most likely

>>our mother so.

yes, it works better if you come at it from the point of view of Irish English - as I would never say "so" at the end...

I'm not so sure "más ea" means indeed. To me "más ea" introduces an element of doubt or sarcasm into the phrase: "Our mother, supposedly".

quote:

2. The eatarthu - it is enough for her all she has bear "at their hands"?

Probably but who is the "eatarthu" referring to?

quote:

3. Laeth láidir is a problem for me - it is either a typo for leath láidir "we are not half as strong enough as we need to be", or a way in old spelling to represent "laoch láidir"

Probably a typo for "leath" and anyway I would expect a plural form here "laetha (laocha)".

quote:

I'm not so sure "más ea" means indeed. To me "más ea" introduces an element of doubt or sarcasm into the phrase: "Our mother, supposedly".

That could be true; although one usually knows who one's mother is. Knowing one's father is a different matter.

(Gormlaith got around; she was a serial king marrier)

quote:

That could be true; although one usually knows who one's mother is. Knowing one's father is a different matter.

Yes, but I'm puzzled by "más ea" here. "Más ea" normally means "if it is", "if so", "even so".

Or in this case: "Our mother, if she is" is Ailín's suggestion.

I think I understand now what it means. It helps when you try to imagine the protagonists having this conversation among themselves:

Chaithfeadh do mháthair teitheadh lena hanam as an áit.”

“Mo mháthair!” arsa Sitric.

“Ár máthair, más ea,” arsa Amhlaoibh. “Ní beag di a bhfuil le fulang aici eatarthu.

The first person who speaks is telling Sitric that his mother must flee. Sitric responds in surprise with "My mother!" and Amhlaoibh then says "OUR mother (even if your statement that she's your mother is true)". In other words, the "más ea" here, is referring not to whether the lady in question is the mother of both of them but to Sitric's claim to "his" mother, if you like. "If she's your mother, she has to be my mother too", if you see what I'm getting at.

That little expression "más ea" is saying "even if that which was previously stated is so". Now, another question, how would you translate all of that into English? My hunch is that you wouldn't. You would simply say "The mother of both of us" or "You mean our mother".

Thanks for the suggestions. Gormfhlaith, or Gormflaith, or Gormley, or Gormlaith etc - what is the established English version? With fhl, fl, l? - she was married to the Viking king of Dublin Olaf Cuarán, and then to Brian Ború and then Maeleachlainn (the high king Brian ejected who resumed the high kingship after Brian's death in 1014).

You can see this book is rather extraordinary - it covers a time period of intense interest in Irish history, and has a range of vocabulary that might not be met with elsewhere.

I can find no evidence historically that Gormlaith had a son called Olaf (Amhlaíb in Old Irish, or Amhlaoibh in modern Irish). But I am only in chapter 30 of 59, and I suspect there may be a further plot twist on Amhlaoibh's true identity, which may explain the "más ea".

On eatarthu - yes Gormlaith was in Kincora among the courtiers of Brian Ború, including Niamh, the daughter of Tadhg Mór Ó Ceallaigh, The O'Kelly of the name of the time period. So the meaning of this is slightly opaque, but I will find out what members of the Coiste Litríochta Mhúsgraí think of it.

Ailín and Aonghus, do you have an opinion on whether the final gh is pronounced in iomarbháigh? (iomarbhá)?

Well, I've never actually heard "iomarbhá" being pronounced but I imagine that like "bá", the final -igh is now silent.

quote:

Thanks for the suggestions. Gormfhlaith, or Gormflaith, or Gormley, or Gormlaith etc - what is the established English version?

I don't believe there is an English version nor should there be. Gormlaith or Gormfhlaith is what one sees. "Gormley"? Good God, David, don't spoil a good thing! Now I have an image of John Gormley's bald pate and Lyric FM accent floating around my head!! LOL

Gormfhlaith is a very interesting name, as it means "blue dominion" or "blue sovereignty". I see a connection to St. Patrick's Blue, the traditional colour of Ireland, there.

Donnchadh Ó Corráin and Fidelma Maguire in their book Irish Names, Lilliput, 1981, 1990, give the following:

Gormlaith - from "gorm" meaning "illustrious, splendid" and "flaith" sovereignty. ... an extremely popular early Irish name ... it retained its popularity throughout the middle ages. In Donegal it survived into the 19th century as Gormley.

Ó Dónaill gives "gorm" (lit.) as "noble, illustrious".

Ó Dónaill also gives "ruler, prince, lord, chief" for "flaith" so "Gormfhlaith > Gormlaith could also mean "illustrious prince (princess?)"

Yes, Taidhgín, Ó Dónaill gives too meanings. The first is literary - lordship, sovereignty. The second is prince, but princess is banfhlaith.

It could be either, although the meanings are linked.

quote:

The State harp is invariably shown on a deep blue background. Here it is worth noting that Gormfhlaith appears in the early Irish texts as the name of several queens closely connected with dynastic politics (including the Kingship of Tara) in the 10th and 11th centuries. Gormfhlaith is a compound of gorm (blue) and flaith (sovereign). In early Irish mythology the sovereignty of Ireland (Flaitheas Éireann) was represented by a woman often dressed in a blue robe.

This is from a PDF on the National Library of Ireland site on heraldry - see http://www.nli.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=72fd744a-aced-43b4-a63b-b64be7b272ec

I don't believe there is a long-standing tradition of green being the colour of Ireland, but looking at the Wikipedia article on St. Patrick's Blue, there seems to be arguments on both sides of the debate.

I have no views one way or another on colours associated with Ireland but I had never heard of "gorm" meaning "noble, illustrious". Donnchadh Ó Corráin is a trustworthy scholar.

I wonder was there a little carelessness involved in the explanation given on the National Library of Ireland site on heraldry? Did the NLI researcher fail to search the entry on "gorm" with sufficient diligence to find the literary meaning? Paper never refused ink and it is easy to copy a mistake from one source to another especially if the copyist doesn't know Irish well. If you sent a note to the National Library might they not correct it?

"flaith" is a word that interests me. It appears in the name "flaherty" or "flatharta > flaithearta > flaithbheartach" which I take to mean as "generous" or "behaving / acting like a prince".

I think "noble ruler" carries a more likely meaning than "blue sovereignty" especially since we are talking about a person's name. The latter appears to me a mistranslation.

As for colours associated with Ireland I would think "an dath craorag" crimson or "flanndearg" vermilion will become prominent in the near future when the budget cuts and bank charges reveal themselves. Ach ní bhaineann cúrsaí airgid le Gaeilge.

I am not sure it has to be "noble, illustrious" and not "blue". The fundamental meaning of gorm is blue and noble is a derived meaning. For example, "blue" as in pornographic in English is a derived meaning. Red has many derived meanings. Ina chogadh dhearg doesn't mean anything to do with red, although it derives therefrom.

Blue is likely to have been the original meaning, and illustrious derived therefrom. So it does mean blue sovereignty, but as blue was the national colour of Ireland (green is strictly for tourist shops), it came to mean illustrious too.

Derived meanings:

buí - sallow of skin colour
dearg - red hot; bloody
dubh - ink; potato blight; dusk
glas - chilly
gorm - noble

at http://www.celt.dias.ie/english/tionol/synop09.html there is an abstract of a paper by Diarmuid Ó Sé on colours in Irish saying:

quote:

Traditional spoken Irish has, or had until recently, a system of colour terms which is quite different from those of major western European languages, including English. In particular, the terms referring to blue and green are used in a way which contrasts sharply with English, and it has been suggested that Irish (and other Celtic languages) should be regarded as having a composite ‘grue’ rather than distinct terms for those two colours. There is also a high degree of convention involved in the use of colour terms in Irish. For instance, buí denotes different hues when referring to the petals of a flower, footwear, livestock, soil and so on. We are familiar with this relativity in English in a limited range of cases such as white and red wine and the ‘pink’ jackets of huntsmen, but in Irish the role of the referent is much greater.

Ach ní féidir liom an alt so go hiomlán a dh'fháil ar an Idirlín. Nách mór an trua é...

You certainly make a case for blue. I'll defer as I have no special knowledge no more than any layman.

Is the arrangement of the colour system completely the same in all dialects, by the way?

I learnt the traditional colour set - i.e., 'duine gorm' is also a black person, 'liath' covers grey but also light blue, the differences between flann, dearg and rua etc. - and I think it is impressed strongly on most learners to do the same. It's all very easy and logical for the most part.

I've read suggestions that novices try and simply carry over the colour system from English, but I've never ever heard anyone try to do so and most of the Irish speakers I would have come in to contact with are learners of various levels.

Would be interesting to hear if there is variation between any of the native dialects or subdialects.

As for Gormfhlaith / Gormlaith - Ó Gormfhlaithe (anglicised 'Gormley') is a family name concentrated heavily in what is now north Monaghan, I think.

Is Gormfhlaith exclusively a female name?

Vincent Morley has a comprehensive (and bilingual) site on the Flags of Ireland.

http://home.connect.ie/morley/

(Cur síos ar chláirseach órga ar chúlra uaine)

quote:

Ba í seo bratach neamhoifigiúil na Éireann ó 1798 anuas go dtí tús an 20ú céad. Cláirseach órga ar chúlra gorm (féach Meirge an Uachtaráin) a bhí ar armas na hÉireann ón 16ú céad i leith, ach d'athraigh na hÉireannaigh Aontaithe dath an chúlra ó ghorm go huaine - dath a bhí ina shiombail réabhlóideach ag deireadh an 18ú céad. Ba mhinic a baineadh úsáid as duilliúr, as craobhacha agus as crainn mar shiombailí poblachtacha ag an am:

quote:

Is Gormfhlaith exclusively a female name?

Sea.

DIL gives a wide range of keywords for Gorm

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=ADV&searchText=%20gorm&HIGH=%20gorm&resp age=0&resperpage=10&Fuzzy=0&bhcp=1

quote:

blue; deep-blue; caerulean; crystal; metallic; sheen; green; dark; swarthy; black; illustrious; splendid; fiery; red; red-fiery; olive-hued; dark-lashed; illustrious; fame; noble-faced; silvery-blue; helmet; blue-eyed; green; foliage; blue; spear; bright; famous; blue-soiled; blue; isle; burnished; blade; grey; pearl; famous; king; dark-green; sea

Oh my! Gorm means "red" too???

Is féidir le Gaeil an ghorm a chuir ina dhearg ar aoinne!

The entry:

quote:

e) fiery red (?): gorm .i. dearg, O'Cl. (prob. only a guess, due to association with compds.; see below).

Dearg is used as an intensifier: Gorm could be too, it seems.

(c.f. sneachta dearg
http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2007/12/sneachta-dearg.html)

The Irish colour system is indeed fascinating but few learners will ever hear much about it; the colour scheme taught to school pupils and adult learners assumes that the Irish system corresponds like for like with that of English.

When I went to school, at no stage were we ever told about "uaine" vs "glas", that "uaine" is an artificial green, the colour of a car or a pen or a post box, but that "glas" is "natural green" as of grass, leaves, etc. I only found all that out years later.

Similarly, "láir ghlas". How many learners are taught that that means "grey mare"? Or that "bróga buíthe" are "pale brown/tan shoes"?

As for "dearg", we also have "an fód dearg a chuir in uachtar, or "turn up the sod" said when removing the top sod or layer in digging.

Aonghus mentions dearg as an intensifier: deargamadán; a complete and utter idiot

"Níorbh iontaí liom an sneachta dearg ná é" = nothing could surprise me more!

Carmannach - I am an adult learner and I was taught the Irish colour system, as was every other learner I have met. If there are isolated examples of people trying to create analogues between the Irish system and the English, I have never had direct experience of them. (Anecdote wars on daltai.com yet again, no doubt.)

Could you explain where you have seen or heard that adult learners are taught an English system? I must have been very lucky as a learner to avoid such classes, schooling, etc.

looking back at my schooling in 1950s, I don't remember being taught an Irish colour system, but I DO remember glas meaning both green and grey, duine gorm being a black person ...

but at the time, many Dublin parents were totally uninterested in Irish- most kids I knew had very little interest. So the teacher was faced with teaching very basic stuff. I was lucky that my parents born 1900-1910 both loved Irish, tried to learn as much as possible with their busy lives, and passed on this love, even though their own Irish wasn't brilliant.

On the other hand, we had to learn loads of poetry, which must have given us some feel for the rhythms of the language - I can still spout it!

agus an iníon atá i Meiriceá, ta mé an bródúil as an suim atá aice i nGaeilge - chuir sí píosa beag de "Oíche Nollaig na mBan" (Seán Ó Ríordáin) ar Facebook - á moladh.

eadaoin

quote:

Could you explain where you have seen or heard that adult learners are taught an English system? I must have been very lucky as a learner to avoid such classes, schooling, etc.

Well, I went to a typical Anglophone school and was taught that gorm = blue, dearg = red, glas = green, donn = brown, etc etc. At no stage was it explained to us that glas for example might mean grey and uaine was never ever mentioned. Similarly, when I started teaching adult courses in at least two Irish language organisations I was given notes to follow and again the same assumption was made that Irish colours follow those of English exactly.

But all of that is the norm for learners of Irish in Ireland, a language taught in the main by non-native speakers. I know of a number of individuals teaching courses whose Irish is woeful.

What of "uaine"? Is it used in speech anywhere? I have not heard it in ordinary speech -- yet. I have met with it in vocabulary lists but wonder is it "live".

I know "rua" can mean "cold" - "gaoth rua Mhárta" (the cold March wind) and the placename "An Mullach Rua" (the cold summit).

Regarding the teaching of Irish once a student knows the basics of Irish grammar the best way of expanding recognition of vocabulary and idiom is by reading and studying literature and listening to spoken Irish. Unfortunately that only gives "gabhchumas" the ability to derive meaning.

There is a further stage of learning, a more important one if the learner is to become an active user of Irish, "ginchumas" - the ability to write and speak Irish.

Writing is relatively easy and a wonderful stimulous to consulting Dinneen or Ó Dónaill having located unfamiliar words or constructions in de Bhaldraithe, Mac Cionnaith, or O'Neill Lane, but speaking requires the assistance of others to tolerate your mistakes and encourage you to improve.

Irish-speakers being bilingual rarely have the patience to allow learners to get beyond basic greetings fearing that anything they say in response will not be understood or will result in long discussion of the medium rather than the message.

I can remember so many people who helped me along the way and I can attach a face, a locale, or a yarn to so many words and phrases that now form part of my own Irish, mo chuidse Gaeilge. Hundreds of them. I am grateful to them as I am to those who contribute to "The Daltaí Boards".

(Message edited by Taidhgín on January 03, 2011)

I use uaine for "artifical" green always.

Actually I tend to exclusively use uaine and liath unless the meaning of glas is unambiguous. That is of course overcorrection.

liath = light, pale grey
glas = dark grey (of horse, suit of clothes, etc.)

bán = blond, fair as in Seán Bán Breatnach

fionn = white (of hair)

fionnrua = light red, sandy (of hair)

Maidir le caiple, bhí an Liath Macha ag Cú Chulainn.

An bhfuil le tuiscint as sin gurbh capall sách geal a bhí i gceist?

quote:

An bhfuil le tuiscint as sin gurbh capall sách geal a bhí i gceist?

Tá.

Recte: gur capall sách geal. Ní guta é an c tosaigh.

Más buan mo chuimhne tá córas ar leith "dathanna" le cuir síos ar chaiple sa Bhéarla. Agus go mbeadh an Liath Macha "grey" sa chóras sin. Ach seans go bhfuilim ar strae - macall fán i'm intinn atá ansan.

liath = light, pale grey - mar athá ráite cheana agam thuas.

Seo a bhí i gceist agam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_coat_color#Basic_coat_colors

Sin iad dathanna an Bhéarla, a Aonghuis. Ag caint ar dhathanna na Gaelainne atháimid anso.

In ainm Chroim, an amhlaidh nach léann tú ach leath an méid a scríobhaim?

"Gray: A horse with black skin but white or mixed dark and white hairs. Gray horses can be born any color, lighten as they age, and eventually most will have either a completely white or "fleabitten" hair coat. Most "white" horses are actually grays with a fully white hair coat. A gray horse is distinguished from a white horse by dark skin, particularly noticeable around the eyes, muzzle, flanks, and other areas of thin or no hair. Variations of gray a horse may exhibit over its lifetime include: . . . "

Tuigim cad é atánn tú a rá - go bhfuil a chóras dathanna féin ag an mBéarlóir - ach ar a shon san is uile is beag an chabhair dúinn an méid sin agus sinn ad iarraidh teacht ar chiall chruinn an fhocail Gaelainne "liath" ar shórt capaill. An dtabharfadh cainteoir dúchais Gaelainne an míniú ceannann céanna ar "liath" mar shaghas capaill? Sin í an cheist athá le freagairt.

Dáltha an scéil, léim agus meáim gach dá scríonn tú.

"Different cultures have different terms for colors, and may also assign some color terms to slightly different parts of the human color space"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term

Agus sa bhreis ar sin is casta ceist na dathanna ach nithe beo a bheith i gceist.

Sin a bhí fúm a rá.

Maith go leor, a chara