Cuirtear an Straiteis 20 Bhliain i bhfeidhm inniu (21u Nollaig 2010). Bhuel, an ceapeann sibhse go n-oibreoidh se go maith ar son ar an rud is tabhactai denar nduchas?

Da mbeadh siad abalta (no da mba mhian leofa) rud inteacht éifeachtach a dhéanamh, is féidir go mbeadh sé déanta acu cheana féin... :-)

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Da mbeadh siad abalta (no da mba mhian leofa) rud inteacht éifeachtach a dhéanamh, is féidir go mbeadh sé déanta acu cheana féin... :-)

Bhí breis is cheithre fichid blian acu leis an scéal a chuir ina cheart agus beart éigineach fónta a dhéanamh. Tá bunsprioc na straitéise lochtach: dhá chéad is caoga míle cainteoir laethúil Gaelainne, a deirid siad. Cá mbeidh siad san: Glas Naíon nó Baile na nGall? Cad is fiú 250,000 cainteoir droch-Ghaelainne sa bailte móra sa mbreis ar a bhfuil againn anois? Airgead amú é sin agus an Ghaeltacht ag dul chuin síogaíochta fan na huaire. Figiúiri, figiúirí, figiúirí - sin a gcloistear aige cleas na bhfoghlaimeoirí sa Ghalltacht.

Tá rialtais stair go holc leis an Ghaeilge acu - ceart go leor, tá RnaG agus roinnte de TG4 go maith - agus ní dóigh liom go mbeidh an straitéis úr iontach difriúil.

Chuala muidne polasaí i ndiadh polasaí ón Rialtas tríd na blianta, agus an chuid is mó gortaithe an Ghaeilge, sa Ghaeltacht í féin agus sa Ghalltacht go speisialta.

An Stratéis as Gaeilge: http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeilge/Straiteis/Strait%C3%A9is.pdf

An Straitéis as Béarla: http://www.pobail.ie/en/IrishLanguage/Strategy/Strategy.pdf

(Message edited by grma on December 21, 2010)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1221/irish_language.html#video

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1222/1224286077246.html

Sílim gur iarracht inmholta é, agus go n-éirí libh uilig. Níl leithscéal ann, ach do na daoiní míchumasacha. Cruthaíonn an doiciméad seo go ndóbair don stát ag achainí oraibh uilig Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. Seo an pointe is tábhachtaí:

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Braitheann an méid atá i ndán don teanga ar dhaoine a roghnóidh go cinnte leas a bhaint as na deiseanna a chruthóidh an Straitéis seo. Sin é an dúshlán atá amach romhainn ar fad.

Seo rud inteacht an-spéisiúil fosta:

• go ndéanfar foclóirí Béarla-Gaeilge agus Gaeilge-Béarla cothrom le dáta a fhorbairt agus soláthar le hiad a thabhairt cothrom le dáta/le hathbhreithniú a dhéanamh orthu go tréimhsiúil agus le foclóirí níos giorra a bhaint astu;
• go ndéanfar na foclóirí sin a fhoilsiú i gcló agus i bhformáidí leictreonacha;
• go gcruthófar acmhainní corpais agus uirlísí foclóireachta d’fhorbairt foclóireachta Gaeilge, a thacóidh le foclóirí aonteangacha (stairiúla) agus cinn dhátheangacha (comhaimseartha);
• go gcuirfear an Foclóir Gaeilge Stairiúil atá á fhorbairt ag Acadamh Ríoga na hÉireann i gcrích faoi 2037;

Bhí na nithe sin ar fad in obair pé scéal é.

Tá frustrachas ormsa le cé chomh mall is atá Foras na Gaeilge ag forbairt an Fhoclóir Nua Béarla Gaeilge.

Agus cá bhfios caithin a fheicfear foclóir ceart cuimsitheach Gaeilge - Gaeilge - rud atá de dhíth má tá Gaeilgeoirí Gaeltachta agus líofa le cur le doimhneacht a gcuid Gaeilge, seachas a bheith faoi srathair an Bhéarla fiú agus iad ag foghlaim Gaeilge.

Cén bladar é sin faoi foclóir aonteangach a bheith "stairiúil"?

Tá éadóchas orm faoin Straitéis seo, mar nach gcreidim go mbeidh spéis ag an gcéad Rialtas eile sa Ghaeltacht, fiú dá mbeadh acmhainní ann chun rudaí fiúntacha a dhéanamh.

Gan fostaíocht a bhfuil Gaeilge Gaeltachta riachtanach dó, sa Ghaeltacht, is deacair feabhas i gcúinsí na Gaeltachta a fheiceáil. An tuar dóchas is mó domsa san rud seo ar fad ná go bhfuil lucht na Gaeltachta ag teacht le chéile chun rudaí a éileamh faoin scéim.

http://www.guthnag.com/

B'as feachtas dá leithéid ag Cearta Sibhialta na Gaeltachta a tháinig Radio na Gaeltachta.

Rud eile a chuir cantal orm. Bhí mír ar Nuacht RTÉ faoi seo aréir. Ní bheadh fhios agat ón mír sin gurbh as Gaeilge a labhair an Taoiseach agus na hAirí. Cuireadh agallamh orthu as Béarla d'aon ghnó don Nuacht.

Cad chuige nach gcuirfí fotheidil leis an méid a dúirt siad as Gaeilge?

Tá na polasaithe mheáin i nÉirinn faoin Ghaeilge mistéireach. Mar shampla, cad chuige nach bhfuil fotheidil as GAEILGE ar TG4? Ní féidir le foghlaimeoirí a fhoghlaim a léamh a chloiseann siad.

Chonaic mé fotheidil as Gaeilge i gcás amháin ar RTÉ1 - bhí siad ar an chlar dátheangach sin. Níl an t-ainm air agam anois...

Sílim go ndúirt duine éigin go bhfuil fotheidil Ghaeilge ar fáil ar téacs. i. 888 nó rud éigin mar sin.

Tá na fotheidil sa Béarla ann toisc go bhfuil TG4 ag brath ar fhógraíocht, agus mar sin is ga dóibh na figiúir féachana a ardú.

Ráiteas Guth na Gaeltachta:

http://gaeltacht21.blogspot.com/2010/12/failte-go-ginearalta.html

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"Mar sin de, cé go bhfáiltíonn muid roimh an Straitéis mar dhúshraith ginearálta, tá dúshlán mhór romhainn go fóill le cinntiú go gcuirfear i bhfeidhm é agus go gcuirfear i bhfeidhm na céimeanna sonrach atá uainn leis an Ghaeltacht a thabhairt slán.

Ta fisean ar Youtube fen Straiteis. Feach ar an gclar 'SeanOBriain' no cuardaigh 'staiteis 20 bliain'.
PS: GRMA, is 'Pobal' an clar a rabhais ag smaoineamh fe i maidir le fotheidil as gaeilge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFvxyKHvG2s

Brian Cowen's Irish irritates, although it probablys more to do with the sound of his voice (whether speaking English or Irish) more than anything...

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go ndéanfar foclóirí Béarla-Gaeilge agus Gaeilge-Béarla cothrom le dáta a fhorbairt agus soláthar le hiad a thabhairt cothrom le dáta/le hathbhreithniú a dhéanamh orthu go tréimhsiúil agus le foclóirí níos giorra a bhaint astu;

Ta muid uilig a' fanacht le focloiri ura o 1977!
Da n-iarrfai orm féin focloir ur a dhéanamh agus da dtabharfai tuarastal domh fana choinne sin, bheadh sé criochnai agam cheana féin... Nil's agam cad é ata siad a dhéanamh. Fad o shoin, nuair a rinneadh O Donaill agus Dinneen, cha rabh riomhaire ar bith le failt agus ba ghaiste a rinneadh 'n obair!

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Nil's agam cad é ata siad a dhéanamh.

Má thuigim an scéal i gceart, tá géarghanntanas daoine go bhfuil ardeolas agus ardtaithí acu ar an nGaelainn san aimsir seo. Na daoine a dh'oibrigh ar fhoclóir Uí Dhónaill; Niall Ó Dónaill é féin, Séamus Ó Grianna, Pádraig Ua Maoileoin, Seosamh Ó Dálaigh agus iad so a thug comhairle is cúnamh; Máirtín Ó Cadhain, Seán an Chóta, Seán Ó Ruadháin, abair, is beag duine dá bhfuil suas anois ab inchurtha le héinne acu súd. Tá daoine go bhfuil ardchumas agus an-mhianach annta, gan dabht, - scoláirthíos nótáltha - ach ni mór a líon.

Lena chois sin, poisteanna ar conradh bliain nó dhó a bhíonn á thairiscint aige lucht an fhoclóra. Na daoine is fearra eolas is taithí ar an dteangain, tá poisteanna socra buana acu cheana agus an-leisce dá réir orthu éirí astu agus dul i mbun conartha go bhfuil téarma socair leis.

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Fad o shoin, nuair a rinneadh O Donaill agus Dinneen, cha rabh riomhaire ar bith le failt agus ba ghaiste a rinneadh 'n obair!

Agus féach go raibh an Duinníneach ag brath ar allas a mhailí féinig leis an obair a chuir i gcrích gan spleáchas d'aon roinn ná rialtas - lasmuigh dos na focail go léir a chuir daoine chuige.

Ach scéal thairis ar fad é sin. D'imigh sin agus tháinig Monnakawn . . .

Nach bhfuair sé tacaíocht ón Irish Texts Society?

Pé scéal é, is cinnte nach maorlathaigh ach amaitéaraigh (sa chiall dearfach, lucht grá) a bhí sna foclóirithe luaithe.

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Nach bhfuair sé tacaíocht ón Irish Texts Society?

Fuair ach air féin a bhí eire na hoibre.

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Pé scéal é, is cinnte nach maorlathaigh ach amaitéaraigh (sa chiall dearfach, lucht grá) a bhí sna foclóirithe luaithe.

Ach ní maorlathaigh ná amaitéaraigh a theastaíonn anois mhuis, ach scoláirthíos go bhfuil fios a ngnótha acu agus a gcroí i ndúchas na teangan acu. Má ba amaitéarach féin é an Duinnineach, ba scoláirthe don chéad scoth leis é. Má dh'fhágaimid an cúram fés na "Gaeilgeoirí gairme" gur mó acu a bpóca ná ceart agus dúchas na teangan, déanfaid fruiseam fraiseam don rud ar fad.

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scoláirthíos go bhfuil fios a ngnótha acu agus a gcroí i ndúchas na teangan acu

Sin é. Sin a bhí i gceist agam le "amaitéaraigh (sa chiall dearfach, lucht grá)".

Sílim go bhfuil an ceart agat maidir leis na conarthaí gairide. Ach féach go bhfuair an Roinn Éadóchais réidh le dream - ITÉ - a bheadh in inmhe don gcúram.

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Sin é. Sin a bhí i gceist agam le "amaitéaraigh (sa chiall dearfach, lucht grá)".

Ach is mó san amaitéarach ná fuil fios a ghnótha aige ach tuarastal ard aige á tharrac ar a shon san féin.

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Ach féach go bhfuair an Roinn Éadóchais réidh le dream - ITÉ - a bheadh in inmhe don gcúram.

Abair é, a dhuine!

Maím nach dtig le duine, a bhfuil fíor ghrá aige dá chúram, gan fios a ghnótha a bheithe aige! Nó ar a laghad flosc chun fios a ghnótha a bhaint amach.

Maidir le boic an airgid - ní i saol na Gaeilge amháin atá amhlaidh. Rud is fréamh leis an bhfaopach ina bhfuil an tír.

Is cosúil go bhfuil ar a laghad plé éigin ar seo sna Meáin Béarla.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1223/1224286166233.html

Donncha Ó hÉallaithe san Irish Times:

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The 20-year strategy will do little to reverse language shift in Gaeltacht communities, despite the fact that such was the objective set by the government when this process was set in motion 10 years ago. Indeed, the stated intention of shifting the focus of Údarás na Gaeltachta away from the Gaeltacht may be an implicit admission by the State that attempting to save Irish as the everyday language of the few remaining Gaeltacht communities should be abandoned in favour of the worthy but softer option of language promotion throughout the State.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1223/1224286166254.html

Alt eile maidir leis na scrúdaithe Béal:

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Much publicity and no little optimism surrounded the decision to increase the percentage mark for the oral Irish examination from 25 per cent to 40 per cent with effect from 2012. That optimism has waned somewhat given that half an academic year has passed without the Department of Education giving any direction to schools as to how to go about teaching for this change. In the absence of such direction we can only assume that the aims of the existing syllabus remain those of the assessment. The syllabus states that candidates are expected to play a full interactive and confident role in personal and formal conversation and be able to read aloud with good pronunciation. Again, we are entitled to ask if the assessment matches the aims; again, the answer is no. The tasks and marking scheme to be used for the new oral exam remain the subject of speculation, much of which suggests that almost 15 per cent of the marks will be awarded for reading aloud 10 or 12 lines of poetry. The idea of recitation is absolutely at variance with the notion of interactive communication and other buzzwords used in the syllabus. “Reading aloud as part of an oral test makes the test invalid to the point of absurdity,” writes the testing expert YP Lee. It would be bad enough if the text were given to the candidate on the day of the exam. How would Lee react to the knowledge that students have two years to learn their few lines off by heart?

Ó hÉallaithe calls it like he sees it again. I agree with him.

Is there a way of finding out who actually devised the Strategy? How many Gaeltacht residents were involved? I remember the public meetings and the plean2028 website where one could submit their suggestions online, but what forms of consultation came after that. The international 'experts' certainly didn't suggest a figure of 250,000.

A Committee of the Oireachtas discussed the draft with various organisations: they held one meeting in the Gaeltacht

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TOJ/2010/01/20/00003.asp

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TOJ/2010/03/10/00003.asp

I don't think the meeting in the Gaeltacht is covered there.


Guth na Gaeltachta produced a list of changes form the draft: that can be found e.g. here:

http://igaeilge.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/dreacht-straiteis-2010-v-straiteis-2011 -le-guth-na-gaeltachta/

GRMA. One positive from the public meetings process was that a fair number were held in the Gaeltacht. This was also the case with the Coimisiún na Gaeltachta in 2000. As Ó hÉallaithe says, it's a process that has been ongoing for a decade.

I do detect a lot of defeatism, and not only in Ó hÉallaithe's article. Also on the politics.ie forum from some Irish speakers, not just the idiotic 'irish is dead' cranks.
http://www.politics.ie/culture-community/146489-governments-20-year-strategy-aim s-have-250-000-speaking-irish-2030-a.html

Comments that "The writing is on the wall" and so on coming from Gaeltacht residents...

My view is that so what if 250,000 speakers isn't reached? The Strategy contains some very good objectives and my worry is that some people who already speak Irish will just throw their hands up in despair...

Having watched the 16 minute clip on YouTube (the launch and the Q&A session), I had a few thoughts...

- Fianna Fáil launching this is bad for the language. Bad timing.

- Brian Cowen rushed through his speech and looked like he couldn't wait to get out of the building...

- The image of the balding, elderly Pat Carey as one of the major spokespersons for the Strategy is not the way to go about things...

- Couldn't they have included some well known Irish media types to help spice things up a bit? Or produced a public service announcement for TV featuring Irish speakers from different regions and different occupations.

- Instead we're stuck with aging, boring politicians who will soon be in Opposition, if they're lucky enough to hold onto their seats...

- I would have much rather seen Aoibheann Ní Suilleabháin, Sharon Ní Bheoláin...maybe Seán Óg Ó hAlpín or Dara Ó Cinnéide...even Des Bishop. Anyone who could bring a little colour to the launch... FF is toxic right now.

Good points, Danny. Where were the people? It comes off to much as another bureaucratic program divorced from the people whom it is supposed to serve. In America here there is a Read program that has been on-going for a long time. It is a famous person -- sports, film, writing, politics, etc -- who have posters or other media type thing with their favorite book, and the simple message is "read". It would be nice if famous Irish people did such a program with the message "speak Irish". I don't think such a program has been done for Irish. Just hints of it (i.e., Des Bishop, etc.) Need to have a face on it which you like.

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- The image of the balding, elderly Pat Carey as one of the major spokespersons for the Strategy is not the way to go about things...

In fairness, that's all a bit ageist. It wouldn't matter if Pat Carey were twenty one and had a beautiful head of luscious golden curls falling around his shoulders. It equally wouldn't matter if they wheeled out some of the bright, young beautiful things from TG4 to "sex it all up" a bit. What matters is the substance of the plan and whether it is realistic. I don't want to be constantly complaining and we are all hoping that the language has a future but can we really trust anything this government promises? And where is this 250,000 speakers coming out of? Where will they be? Who will they be? Why that figure? Is it based on any solid linguistic research? The priority now absolutely must be the Gaeltacht and the vast bulk of any moneys should be directed there. This is no joke. It really isn't! This is the endgame for the Gaeltacht and the language. Labelling those who don't conform to standard Irish nationalist ideology about Irish being "everyone's language" and every Irish person being a card-carrying "Gael" and Irish being their "native language" although it quite clearly is not does not help matters. Ó hÉallaithe has actually gone to the Gaeltacht and done the work on the ground and labelling his work as "defeatist" is unfair. Hindley, Ó Giollagáin and others were similarly labelled "defeatist" for simply telling it how it is.

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I do detect a lot of defeatism, and not only in Ó hÉallaithe's article. Also on the politics.ie forum from some Irish speakers, not just the idiotic 'irish is dead' cranks.

Defeatism or realism? Unfortunately, I don't hold out much hope for the language as long as people cling tenaciously to the conceit that middle class urban native Anglophone learners of the language (such as myself) and their Irish which is heavily influenced by English phonology and syntax and lacking a great deal of everyday vocabulary should be placed on the same level or even above that of native Gaeltacht speakers. I for one am not so arrogant as to put myself on the same level or even above someone from Machaire Rabhartaigh or Ros Muc or Baile na nGall who have been speaking the language as a native language for countless generations. Learners should be praised for putting the time and effort in of learning the language - when they actually do put the effort in (and there are many who do) - but there are many who follow the Irish-is-my-native-language-purely-because-I'm-Irish-so-feck-you-for-saying-othe rwise argument and therefore argue that their often poor Irish is as good as anyone else's. If that makes me a "defeatist crank", fine. I don't care about petty insults, what concerns me are cold hard facts.

Those are fair points and I did say earlier...

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Ó hÉallaithe calls it like he sees it again. I agree with him.

I mean defeatism in the sense that there is this idea that the Gaeltacht is doomed to extinction no matter what. Why should it be? There's a difference between falling short of the 250,000 mark and extinction as a community language.
There are more Irish medium schools than ever before. There are more reasons to speak Irish than ever before.

Virtually everyone who can speak Irish in the Gaeltacht also speaks English...really the only domain left is the household...there are still Irish speaking households. Is the worry that these remaining households will become exclusively English speaking in the next twenty years?

This idea that the Gaeltacht is destined to pass no matter what is what I call defeatism and I think it's the greatest threat to Irish.

How widespread is the use of Irish in administration in the Gaeltacht? Has the Official Languages Act done much to improve things?

According to a Welsh speaker on Politics.ie the number of people speaking Welsh on a daily basis has increased by 5 percent.But this has taken a number of years,whereas we aim to treble the number of speakers of Irish in a mere two decades.

Wildly optimistic and has 'desperate election gimmick' written all over it.I take Carmanach's point about ageism;there could be a spread of Irish speakers across the generations helping to promote the language - it would look more like real life for one thing - and they don't have to be celebs either.


I'm an oul wrinkly and as such have little room to talk - but the Dáil does indeed come across as a gerontocracy these days.Maybe some of the new intake will put some real energy into the Gaeltacht situation.

This twenty year plan reminds me of Stalin's series of five year plans to revolutionize the country - maybe we just need someone ruthless?
Ar ndoigh, nilim ach ag magadh.

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I mean defeatism in the sense that there is this idea that the Gaeltacht is doomed to extinction no matter what. Why should it be?

Well, just look at the rest of the country, where Irish has vanished from almost the whole island of Ireland apart from little pockets known collectively as the "Gaeltacht". Even there, the decline has never been reversed, only slowed, and the category A areas as outlined in Staidéar Cuimsitheach Teangeolaíoch ar Úsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht, drawn up in 2007, are confined to five small pockets: the extreme north-west corner of Donegal, Ceathrú Thaidhg in northwest Mayo, part of Conamara and Cois Fhairrge in Co Galway, the Aran Islands and northwestern Corca Dhuibhne. These are the only areas where Irish can be effectively called a community language. There is no reason to presume that the language will not eventually disappear there also as it has everywhere else unless drastic action is taken. The Gaeltacht areas are too small and fragmented and all speakers are nowadays bilingual in English and Irish (though there are many monolingual Anglophones also).

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There's a difference between falling short of the 250,000 mark and extinction as a community language.

I don't believe that that 250,000 figure has anything to do with the Gaeltacht at all. I believe that the vast bulk of these people are intended to be Anglophone learners from the towns and cities. Irish in Dublin and other places in the "Galltacht" is a hobby language and though the term "Irish language community" is often bandied about, there are no Irish speaking communities outside of the official Gaeltacht areas. Anglophone learners of Irish are private individuals who have taken it upon themselves to learn the language for ideological or political reasons. In almost all cases, their knowledge and confidence in speaking Irish falls far short of that of their mother tongue, English. These individuals also display great differences from one another in terms of their overall knowledge and experience of spoken Irish. They don't live in any single geographical area but are scattered across the country among the majority monoglot Anglophone population. They lack any distinct geographical accent or dialect which mark out native speakers of any language but tend to share overall features, often calques from their mother English. The vast majority also use English language phonology. Only a tiny minority use indigenous Irish language phonology.

Now before I get pounced on yet again, let me say that there is nothing wrong with people learning Irish and being encouraged to do so. However, to base a national language plan on learners and not primarily on native speakers just seems weird to me.

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Virtually everyone who can speak Irish in the Gaeltacht also speaks English...really the only domain left is the household...there are still Irish speaking households. Is the worry that these remaining households will become exclusively English speaking in the next twenty years?

Yes, but many people also speak Irish in the shop, pub, garage, post office, outside church on Sunday, chatting to the neighbours as well as in their own kitchens with their own families. However, there are areas where Irish is no longer a language commonly spoken down in the local shop or pub for example but confined to certain households. In those areas the language has already ceased to be a community language and will eventually disappear completely.

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This idea that the Gaeltacht is destined to pass no matter what is what I call defeatism and I think it's the greatest threat to Irish.

The greatest threat to Irish is ignoring the Gaeltacht completely and expecting Anglophone learners to replace native speakers.

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This twenty year plan reminds me of Stalin's series of five year plans to revolutionize the country - maybe we just need someone ruthless?
Ar ndoigh, nilim ach ag magadh.

Well, it's funny you should mention that. I'm currently reading R.M. Douglas's comprehensive account of Ailtirí na hAiséirghe, a fascist party of 1930's Ireland. Their plan was not only to completely re-Gaelicise Ireland by banning the use of English in public places but to have Ireland completely Irish-speaking in just five years!

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Their plan was not only to completely re-Gaelicise Ireland by banning the use of English in public places but to have Ireland completely Irish-speaking in just five years!

Lol, in just five years, the only thing you can do is to kill everybody who doesn't speak Irish daily, that would decrease the population quite quickly lol :-D

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Lol, in just five years, the only thing you can do is to kill everybody who doesn't speak Irish daily, , that would decrease the population quite quickly lol :-D

Excellent idea! Have you mentioned it to Pat Carey? LOL

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Now before I get pounced on yet again, let me say that there is nothing wrong with people learning Irish and being encouraged to do so. However, to base a national language plan on learners and not primarily on native speakers just seems weird to me.

Carmanach: Please don't regard this as a "pounce." It is not intended as such. I agree totally with you in regard to the importance of the native Irish speaking communities in the five Category A areas. I know other areas where even I, a stranger, could see the difference between the genuine native speakers and the others who had to bluff in conversations where they had to reveal their lack of Irish. If a way could be found to motivate such marginal Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht to learn the language of their parents and neighbours there might be hope.

Regarding the areas of Ireland outside the Gaeltacht the word anglophones jars with me. Included among such people are those on the edge of the Gaeltacht who still pronounce English as if the caol le caol leathan le leathan rule applied.

There is a continuum of speakers of English in Ireland from good speakers down to very poor speakers. Compare speakers of English on BBC4 or BBC World Service with the Bertie-speak that passes for English in Ireland where sentences are padded out with "Eh ... I mean ... like ... you know ... well ... etc" and another of speakers of Irish where even Gaeltacht speakers can be heard peppering their language with "even ... so ... mar a deir (sic) an Béarla etc".

There is a similar continuum among those who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht from good to very poor. Some of the Irish speakers have been reared by native Irish speakers living outside the Gaeltacht and are almost indistinguishable from those living in the Gaeltacht itself. Others may have been reared by parents whose English still preserved the sounds of Irish and many words and phrases in Irish. Many Irish placenames retain the original pronunciation.

Anglophone has a pejorative tone to it which may not be intended. Many of those speaking English in Ireland would dearly love to be able to speak Irish. I don't think anglophone describes them. I know Francophone describes French speakers but attributing "anglo" to Irish people may be misconstrued.

Finally, in the Dublin suburb where I live there is a considerable number of active Irish speakers. Given that we all know each other we communicate regularly by e-mail and by phone -- mostly in Irish. Meetings of the Bord Bainistíochta of the local Gaelscoil are in Irish as are the meetings of Coiste an Aifrinn and Glór na nGael. I accept there is no comparison between us and a Category A Gaeltacht community. Nevertheless I hear and speak Irish every day. I'll be sorry if the teaching of Irish in Galltacht schools is weakened or abandoned on the pretext of concentrating resources on the Gaeltacht.

Anyway, Carmanach, you and I are on the same side in this. I understand your viewpoint and share it. I hope nothing I have written above causes offence. I don't intend that.

I want to wish you and all here on Daltaí a happy and purposeful New Year.

Referring to Ceathrú Thaidhg as an Irish speaking community is probably stretching the truth at this point, but your general point stands. One poster on the politics.ie forum claiming to be a native speaker from south Conamara and longtime resident of the area says even in places like Ros Muc and Leitir Mealláin the language of young people (both young schoolchildren and teens) is English. And that this is a noticeable change from even twenty years ago. Most areas saw this shift complete by the 1970s...

What hope does Irish truly have when all of its speakers are bilingual and when many of its most devoted, habitual speakers are urbanites who are ultimately more comfortable in their mother tongue (which is usually English rather than Irish)?

We could see a situation where the sheer number of habitual speakers rises, but where the language is no longer used in any rural community.

Danny,

POI.

The Irish language is not completely dead amongst young people in Conamara.

Almost all school children from Bearna to Carna CAN speak Irish.

Starting from Indreabhan and ending in Carna some actually do. (a minority).

Even in Spideal around 40% of kids will be native speakers.

I noticed a lot of young people speak Irish together in Carraroe.

quote:

Carmanach: Please don't regard this as a "pounce." It is not intended as such.

Of course not . . .

quote:

Regarding the areas of Ireland outside the Gaeltacht the word anglophones jars with me.

Well, my copy of the Collins English Dictionary informs me that "Anglophone" is defined as "a person who speaks English, esp. a native speaker". Now, if that "jars" with you, that's your problem.

quote:

There is a continuum of speakers of English in Ireland from good speakers down to very poor speakers.

Good God, here we go again! The "Native speakers are incapable of speaking their own mother tongue and need to be told off by Taidhgín, so there, suck on that!!!" argument.

quote:

Compare speakers of English on BBC4 or BBC World Service with the Bertie-speak that passes for English in Ireland where sentences are padded out with "Eh ... I mean ... like ... you know ... well ... etc" and another of speakers of Irish where even Gaeltacht speakers can be heard peppering their language with "even ... so ... mar a deir (sic) an Béarla etc".

Er, hang on there a minute. What sort of English do you speak Taidhgín? Do you speak Received Pronunciation or Hiberno English with an Irish accent? If you speak the latter, then you are most certainly speaking a non-standard form of English while condemning others of committing a similar "crime". Pots and kettles, Taidhgín? As for Bertie Ahern, I have no time for him personally or his politics but shouldn't you be "playing the ball and not the man" as you once accused me of doing on an earlier thread? Irrespective of what you or I think personally about Bertie Ahern, Ahern was brought up speaking working class Dublin English. He is a mother tongue English speaker as you and I are. And if he is occasionally lost for the right word, as happens to the best of us, and has to say "Eh ... I mean ... like ... you know ... well ...", so what? That happens to me all the time. Play the ball, Taidhgín and not the man.

You really have a very poor opinion indeed of native Hiberno-English speakers when you speak of "the Bertie-speak that passes for English in Ireland". Now, Ahern was mocked in the media here for saying "dis, dat, dese 'n' dose" - a "crime" that the vast majority of the people of this country are guilty of. It's not called Hiberno-English for a joke! In Hiberno-English, alveolar plosives and not dental fricatives are the norm in such words. It's a clear part of our dialect and does nothing to hamper communication among native Hiberno-English speakers. This is Ireland, remember, not the English Home Counties!

Native Irish speakers do also borrow such fillers as "yeah, no, actually, really?" from English. That is entirely natural. They are merely responding to the everyday language they hear around them and as the language disappears in Gaeltacht areas such borrowings are becoming all the more frequent. As regards, native English speakers, Ahern isn't alone in using fillers. We all do it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(linguistics)

quote:

There is a similar continuum among those who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht from good to very poor.

Keep flogging that horse, Taidhgín. It's not going to get any deader. Here again we find the very same false equation that is wheeled out at every opportunity. The contrast between non-standard and standard NATIVE spoken English is to be placed on the same level as the wide variation of competence and experience amongst native Anglophone learners of Irish, native speakers of a language only distantly related to Irish. The conclusion from Taidhgín here is clear: non-standard native English, such as working class Dublin English, is no different from Gaelscoilis and Hectorese. Plain old class snobbery is used to prop up the fallacy that native Anglophone Irish learners belong to the same continuum of speakers as native Gaeltacht people.

quote:

Anglophone has a pejorative tone to it which may not be intended. Many of those speaking English in Ireland would dearly love to be able to speak Irish. I don't think anglophone describes them. I know Francophone describes French speakers but attributing "anglo" to Irish people may be misconstrued.

Er, so the vast majority of Irish people are not native English speakers, Taidhgín? How exactly does that work then? What are they then, native Serbo-Croat speakers? Mongolian? Guaraní? Norwegian?

"attributing "anglo" to Irish people may be misconstrued" - so according to you, we shouldn't call English speakers, well, English speakers. How could the term "Anglophone" be "misconstrued"? Go ahead, fill us all in.

quote:

I accept there is no comparison between us and a Category A Gaeltacht community

But it's ok to compare learner's Irish with that of non-standard native English and expect some sort of equivalence between the two?

quote:

I'll be sorry if the teaching of Irish in Galltacht schools is weakened or abandoned on the pretext of concentrating resources on the Gaeltacht.

"I accept there is no comparison between us and a Category A Gaeltacht community"

quote:

Anyway, Carmanach, you and I are on the same side in this. I understand your viewpoint and share it. I hope nothing I have written above causes offence. I don't intend that.

"Flamboyant gibberish from God know's where".

Come on you guys be nice. :)

There are dialects of ALL languages.
Obviously there are different dialects of Irish in Ireland but there are also different dialects of English too, but still all called Hibernian English. You will find that the English spoken in Galltacht Galway and Connemara is not the same as Dublin English (closer to standard English). Outside Dublin people are well capable of saying the "th" sound.

Also who is to say that Yorkshire Engish is better than the Queen's English.

I think using fillers are more personal usage.
Used in Irish and English equally.


Some of you have probably heard the Joe Duffy interview of that Limerick band the Rubberbandits. I thought it hilarious when he asked them can you speak properly -coming from Joe Duffy that was a joke.

Merriam Webster:

Anglophone: consisting of or belonging to an English-speaking population especially in a country where two or more languages are spoken

(The adjective on which the noun is based.)

Also, Carmanach has a point about comparing native speakers (of any dialect) to learners. Maybe we need to think about the Polish or other immigrants coming in and learning English, and about the quality of the English they pass on to their children. Now amplify that analogy to a whole class of society in charge of passing on that English. The learner Irish is going to have deficiencies compared to authentic Gaeltacht Irish. How do we lessen that gap?

quote:

How do we lessen that gap?

By having Gaeltacht Irish as the standard to emulate. By ensuring that teachers of Irish have at least the opportunity to spend a period of immersion in a Category A Gaeltacht - preferably in winter! By providing a curriculum in Irish for Gaeltacht and fluent speakers which challenges them to excel. (Turned down recently by an Roinn Éadóchais). By having a meaningful oral exam which cannot be passed by rote learning. (See previous). By changing the models on Television from Hector et al to genuine fluent Gaeltacht speakers.

But none of this will matter unless we can stem the haemorrhage of speakers in the Gaeltacht. And that requires there to be employment available in the Gaeltacht which can only be filled by native speakers. That is the real rub - since many employment schemes up to now have accelerated the decline of Irish speaking areas, by brining in English speakers - first at management level then on the factory floor.

RnaG and TG Fóir can only do so much, although the independent television production companies seeded by Údarás na Gaeltachta and encouraged by TG4 have been useful. Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta is useful also, by organising third and fourth level education in Irish in the Gaeltacht.

I've heard that some staff at RnaG and TG4 have no Irish at all. I don't know if it's true, however.

Are there enough competent Irish speaking teachers to go around? Should Irish even be 'compulsory' after the Junior Cert, considering most people outside of the Gaeltacht will send their child to a gaelscoil if they want them to be educated through Irish. The problem there is the lack of Irish medium schools at secondary level. Many areas don't have them.

I do wonder if the position of Irish in the schools can now be justified. It seems that regular English medium (State) schools are rather poor when it comes to teaching Irish.

I sometimes feel that the position of Irish does more harm than good. Éamon Ó Cuív said that one of his goals was to normalize Irish in society among those who don't speak it. That will be a challenge when many people have terrible memories of learning the language, and this often wears off on their own children. There is a perception that Irish is 'still being forced on us' after 90 years. It smacks of tokenism of the worst kind, according to some. There are no easy answers.

Danny,

Surely you have asked the above question a 1,000 times, surely you must expect a similar answer?

How is your Irish comming along?

Danny, (and anybody else interested in the status of Irish at leaving Cert)

May I suggest you read the following essay:

https://cnag.ie/campaign/1282559559the_status_of_irish_in_the_leaving_certificat e__the_reasons_why_august_2010.pdf

In Irish if you like:
https://cnag.ie/campaign/1282559635stadas_na_gaeilge_san_ardteistimeireacht__na_ reasuin_leis_lunasa_2010.pdf

The argument against Irish being "compulsory" and therefore more people using it was made when it was removed as a requirement for the Civil Service. The results of that were catastrophic. From being a department which functioned through Irish, the Department of Education now has only 1.5 % of its staff capable of doing their work through Irish. (Down from 3% a year ago) The knock on effect on Gaelscoileanna and Gaeltacht schools has been very damaging. (And Irish speakers have anecdotally at least been driven out of the department by frustration).

Even the alleged extra points in Civil Service interviews for Irish was systematically undermined; and the mandarins are appealing a high court case on this very topic.

I will happily fornicate with every woman Gaeilgóir in this country between 18-40, We will have our 250,000 speakers this way and some fun along the way

Unfortunately that does not guarantee the progeny speak Irish. Your contribution would need to be more than microscopic for that....

Your contribution would need to be more than microscopic for that....

Cé a dúirt leat go bhfuil bod beag 'am? :-)

Cé dúirt rud ar bith faoi do bhod? Ag caint ar do shíol a bhíos!

Is cuma faoi mhéid do bhod nuair is tógáil clainne le Gaeilge an sprioc.

Duairt Crosáidí: "Cé a dúirt leat go bhfuil bod beag 'am? :-)"

Bhuel, tá sé ar a laighead admháilte agat ná fuil ach boidín agat! Níor dheinis aon iarracht ar é a shéanadh! Ach dá laighead é, tánn tú ollamh chun é a dh'úsáid ar son na Gaelainne, rud a thaispeánann go bhfuil uaisleacht aigne agat!

(Message edited by corkirish on December 29, 2010)

David, an amhlaidh gur dlíodóir tú? Breacfar nótaí ar gach a deirtear agus nach ndeirtear - agus úsáidfear i do choinne iad?

Amhail ceist a chuir ar dhuine an bhfuil sé fós ag bualadh a mhnaoi....

An bhfuil sé fós ag bualadh a mhná? Ní dlíodóir mé in aon chor. Ní rabhas ach ag déanamh spóirt le Crosáidí!

Agus mise leatsa! Tugaim do dhúshláin an ceist úd a fhreagairt (an bhfuil tú fós ag bualadh do mhnaoi? )gan tú féin a chuir níos doimhne sa phraiseach!

Does that figure of 1.5% refer to the Department of Education alone or the entire civil service? I will read the report soon.

I doubt removing compulsion would result in a massive increase in students who are fluent. That's not the point. It would remove a grievance and reduce the strain on teachers.

Too many Irish teachers are not fluent themselves. This has been a problem since the very founding of the State. The system is broken. It isn't working.

I believe it would also result in smaller class sizes where more students are there because they want to be. The day is fast approaching where Irish will only be a required subject up to the JC, so the Irish language 'movement' should prepare itself.

Sure there can be complaints about methods, but if you're grieving about having to take Irish all through school, your head is way up there. You can't help those people either way. What a bunch of babies. Do they complain about having to show up on time too?

Danny: consider
Both the teaching of Maths and of Irish is broken in Ireland.

The proposed solution for maths is to reform the curriculum, improve teacher training and to give bonus points to those who study higher maths.

The proposal for Irish is to remove the need to study it.

See the implications?

quote:

Does that figure of 1.5% refer to the Department of Education alone or the entire civil service?

The Department of Education alone: their own figures.
I'm not aware of any figures being available for the wider Civil service.

Maths is regarded as being more important, which it is. You can't really compare the two. Let's be honest here, the number of Irish speakers who cannot communicate in English is tiny.

There would be uproar if every student in Canada had to study French throughout school! French speakers make up 20% of the population and although the vast majority are in Québec (and eastern New Brunswick), bilingualism is official government policy.

Why should Irish remain compulsory in State schools when most people live reasonably close to a gaelscoil?

I don't see any proposals to do away with Irish altogether, only to make it optional for the LC.

Some people underestimate the amount of resentment felt towards Irish because of how it has been taught. Or the feeling that Irish will be of no use outside of the country (or even in it).

Why are non-fluent individuals teaching the Irish language? Does this sort of thing happen in other countries?

What exactly is the purpose of having young people study Irish for 13 years? Is it to equip them with a moderate amount of Irish in the hopes that they will continue to study it in their own time and one day become fluent? Is it done in the hopes that Irish will be reinstated as the main language of the population?

I don't see how 'compulsory' status has helped the language. For every 'Taidhgín' who comes to love the language and carries on speaking it for the rest of their lives, you probably have nine others who get little to no satisfaction out of it and never become fluent.

The drop of competent Irish speakers in the civil service is much more worrisome, in my view.

quote:

Both the teaching of Maths and of Irish is broken in Ireland.

The proposed solution for maths is to reform the curriculum, improve teacher training and to give bonus points to those who study higher maths.

The proposal for Irish is to remove the need to study it.

See the implications?

Well said, Aonghus.

I'm not looking forward to the up coming election........

I'm trying to avoid this thread, but can I say that if everyone in Anglophone Canada had to study French throughout school - that would be a quality education system. Learning a language is part of a classical liberal education. If the Anglophones in Canada don't want to study French, then they ought to studying *some* other language. Honestly, it's nonsense to say that they would be angry at having to study a language - they ought to be protesting that languages are not on the curriculum.

There is an argument that those who don't to study Irish shouldn't have to - but there is no valid argument whatsoever that they should not study *any* language. It broadens your mind - makes you think of ways of saying things that come at the point from a different angle, it opens you up to literature and history written in a different language, it even helps you understand language per se, and therefore your own language, better.

I know this thread is not about learning the Irish language, so I will try to keep out. But people who have never learned any language at school are just not educated people.

Most Anglophones in Canada *do* study a language in school. It's not necessarily French. My school offered French, German and Spanish. Some schools in urban areas now offer Mandarin Chinese, Arabic, and Japanese.

My point is that none are compulsory, including French which is an official language of the State! Canada is much more multilingual than Ireland, I assure you. French is spoken by very few west of Ontario. The point is that there would be some uproar in the western half of the country if French was required all the way through to the end of highschool (age 17 or 18).

Regarding Ireland, it seems that many student do study other languages. Spanish in particular. Many get exemptions from Irish yet study other languages.

People are purposely avoiding Irish because many people feel it has no use. You certainly don't learn it out of necessity any longer.

My understanding is that they don't want to learn Irish. They seem more than willing to learn "important" languages. As for Canada, the parallel is not working. Canada has one French province with French as its official language. There is not much demand for French outside of that except on the borders. And it seems like foolery to put holes in the hull to make a ship float to a destination. Did anyone read the links by Aonghus? The argument is laid out there crystal clear.

There are parallels. Canada has two official languages, just like the Republic. Canada has an official policy of bilingualism at federal level, and it's more effective than in Ireland. The Province of New Brunswick is officially bilingual. Around 10% of resident in the Province of Prince Edward Island are francophones. There are also French speakers in eastern Ontario and Nova Scotia.

You can't be taken seriously as a party leader at federal level unless you're fully fluent in both official languages. Debates take place in French among the four main party leaders, even when only one or two of the four are native speakers...and so on.

There has never been a party leaders debate conducted through the medium of Irish and broadcast on radio or television in the history of the Irish State! Eighty eight years! The whole thing is a farce and the government(s) over the years have been the greatest anglicizing force during that time. One wonders if the language would have fared better had all of Ireland remained in the United Kingdom. That's how bad the record of the government is when it comes to Irish language policies.

The system is broken. The results are derisory. Reform the teaching of Irish by making it optional after the Junior Cert. Not banning it, not keeping it compulsory. Irish medium schools are the way to go.

Finland is a better example.

Finland has a Swedish speaking minority, with areas comparable to the Gaeltacht.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish

Reform the teaching of Irish by reforming the teaching of Irish.

quote:

There has never been a party leaders debate conducted through the medium of Irish and broadcast on radio or television in the history of the Irish State!

Actually, there have been such debates in the Dáil. Even wonder why you didn't hear about them?

I agree with Danny2007 that Irish medium schools is the only way to go. What a complete waste of time having teachers in English mediums schools with deplorable spoken Irish teaching children with no interest whatsoever in learning the language. However this is with the proviso that new Gaelscoils and Gaelcholáistí are supported and given recognition by Government as at the moment the founding of any new Gaelscoils are banned in the Republic by the Department of Education.

Aontaím libh freisin: ACH tá gá le múinteoirí. Cheana féin tá deacrachtaí ag Gaelscoileanna agus scoileanna Gaeltachta teacht ar mhúinteoirí líofa: cuimhnigh go mbeadh orthu an réimse uile a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, rud a éilíonn líofacht as an gnách.

San tréimhse idir eatarthu, caithfear leanacht le Gaeilge a mhúineadh. Agus an chéad céim ná oiliúint múinteoirí a fheabhsú.

Tá an fhianaise againn cad a tharlaíonn nuair nach mbíonn teangacha riachtanach: titeann an éileamh go tubaisteach.

Agus cinnte dearfa caithfear an Roinn Éadóchais a leasú!

quote:

For every 'Taidhgín' who comes to love the language and carries on speaking it for the rest of their lives, you probably have nine others who get little to no satisfaction out of it and never become fluent.

Danny, that is speculation based on no data.

The data shows that most people are sympathetic to Irish: but only a small minority learn it; and another small minority moan about it.

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Preaseisiuinti/file,9801,ie.pdf

Aonghus, I wasn't going to contribute in this thread any further, as it is useless to anyone seeking to learn Irish, but you mentioned the Finland-Swedes - a subject close to my heart as my great-grandfather was a Finland-Swede, but I also have ancestors from the Finnish-speaking area. Finnish people rave about how their country is the best example of bilingualism in the world, but the reality is a little different. Finland's policies if adopted in Ireland would lead to the end of the Gaeltacht in one generation.

The Swedish-speaking population more than halved in the 20th century, with many of them moving to Sweden. In 1900, the country was 12.9% Swedish-speaking, but by 2005 this was down to 5.5%. Apart from Åland, which is monolingual Swedish (note that this is not due to the generosity and munificence of the Finnish-speaking Finns, liberally allowing the islanders to keep their own language, but is totally due to an international treaty under the League of Nations in the 1920s that awarded the islands to Finland on condition the islands were governed in Swedish), the other Swedish-speaking areas are mainly bilingual, as there is a "poison-pill" language Act that means that monolingual Swedish-speaking municipalities have to become bilingual as soon as the Finnish speakers cross 8% of the population (and then monolingual Finnish as soon as the Swedish speakers fall below 6%). While it is true that bilingual municipalities require civil servants to be bilingual, it also means there is no attempt whatsoever to maintain the original language of the area.

Take Vasa - an originally 100% Swedish-speaking city. This is now Finnish-first. No one ever told Finnish speakers moving to the city that they were moving into an area set aside for the Swedish language. True, the Finnish speakers had to have some lessons in Swedish at school (as they do in all Finland) but hardly any emerge as fluent Swedish speakers, and gradually the linguistic culture of the area has changed. As far as I understand, even Anglophone Irish children attend the same Gaeltacht schools in Irish as everyone else: they are, or at least are meant to be, subject to Irish immersion. But that is not Finland's policy. Swedish immersion for all pupils in a municipality ceases when 8% are Finnish speakers and then Finnish immersion for all is mandated when the Swedish speakers fall below 6%. In fact, there are only 3 municipalities in Finland outside Åland which remain monolingually Swedish (Korsnäs, Närpes and Larsmo). The other 31 Swedish municipalities are all bilingual.

In bilingual areas where civil servants have to be bilingual, the experience is that services are only available in Finnish... there is no legal right to sue civil servants who are meant to be able to function in Swedish for not in fact providing this service...

I'm not arguing that there is a direct comparison.

I'm merely pointing out that the requirement to universally learn both official languages is not limited to Ireland.

The problems you describe seem to mirror problems in the Gaeltacht here. Except that Gaeltacht Irish speakers obviously have no greater Gaeltacht to move to! And Swedish is not an endangered language.

In fact, a key issue is that Gaeltacht schools are not in fact Gaelscoileanna, and do not practice the type of immersion practised in Gaelscoileanna, to the detriment of young native speakers.

There is no question that reform in the teaching of Irish is required at all levels: but removing Irish as an essential part of the Educational system is not the solution.

(Message edited by aonghus on December 30, 2010)

One small fact, (and I deplore the misuse of this interesting language learning forum by those with a political agenda) but the election is not over.

"Fine Gael" have not won yet. Their support is not even growing at the moment.

The Irish language movement is and will fight on this point to the bitter end and it is having an effect.

Fine Gael do realise that the 7% of the population who are anti-Irish language may not be enough.

Besides, they and Labour may not have enough votes to push the legislation through, especially given that Fianna Fàil's support seems to be going to Sinn Fèin.

The other thing is that many (thousands) of teachers will lose there jobs if this goes through - Labour will think twice.

An other point to realise is that the electorate are not completely stupid, they realise that if 'compulsory' Irish is lost at leaving cert then the 'choice' will soon follow, within ten years Irish would only be availalbe as a choice in a minority of schools.

The vast majority of people in Ireland would not want that in my view.

Anois, an 'Daltaì na Gaeilge' seo nò ardàn do dhaoine ag ligint orthu go bhfuil siad ag foghlaim na Gaeilge?

To adapt a quote by Chesterton:

The Irish language ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

If you understand Chesterton, then you understand the way this 20 year strategy should go.

Ought to, or will?

Ought to. If the ought to is done, then the will follows.

I'm afraid we can't expect aught. Unless there is grass roots movement: I see most hope in Guth na Gaeltachta and people on the ground reacting to the studies and put no faith in politicians or public administrators.

RnaG was brought about by grass roots movement (and promptly smothered in RTÉ).

TnaG, ditto.

Gaelscoileanna, ditto.

I agree, but that's why it is an ideal. I also agree about the grass roots. This is a bottom up movement.

quote:

Actually, there have been such debates in the Dáil. Even wonder why you didn't hear about them?

I'm aware of debates in the Dáil. I suppose I could have been clearer. I'm referring to a party leader debate on RTÉ during election time through the medium of Irish (and broadcast simultaneously on RTÉ Radio 1 and RnaG, for example). This has never happened.

And less than 1% of Dáil debates are conducted in Irish. This reflects the position of Irish nationally. In this sense, politicians merely reflect the population they claim to represent and the language choices of the population. If more people speak Irish, more debates will be conducted through Irish.

quote:

but removing Irish as an essential part of the Educational system is not the solution.

How would it be 'removing' Irish? I would be against a plan that would prevent any student from learning Irish. Classes should be offered at all levels, but they shouldn't be compulsory after the Junior Cert, in my view.

quote:

they realise that if 'compulsory' Irish is lost at leaving cert then the 'choice' will soon follow, within ten years Irish would only be availalbe as a choice in a minority of schools.

If so, wouldn't that just reflect the fact that most people don't want to use or learn Irish? You seem to be saying that a choice shouldn't be given because if it was, the numbers taking Irish would collapse. It might, but most people who take Irish rarely use the language after their school years anyway. Many can't.

quote:

Danny, that is speculation based on no data.

The data shows that most people are sympathetic to Irish: but only a small minority learn it; and another small minority moan about it.

If I remember correctly, over 400,000 school age individuals claimed to speak Irish daily inside the education system in the 2006 Census. How many said they used it outside of the education system as well? I believe it was around 18,000. Let me check the census...
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006_volume9.htm

EDIT:

I was close. 453,207 people claimed to speak Irish daily within the education system only. The majority of these come from the 5-9, 10-14 and 15-19 year old groups, as one would expect. A total of 31,605 (across all age groups) said they spoke Irish also outside education. Of these 31,605, 18,677 said they spoke Irish daily within *AND* outside the education system. (Table 36)

So you a total of 453,207 daily speakers in the education system only, and 18,677 who speak it in school and also outside of it. That's 3.9% of people who speak it inside the education system. Why are less than 5% of Irish speakers in the education system not using the language daily outside of the classroom?

This doesn't even take into account the approx. 412,000 who said they could speak Irish and never use it, or the 581,000 who speak it 'less often' outside of the education system.

I was being generous to Irish when I said 9 out of 10 (or 90 out of 100 if you will) who learn some Irish in school never use it once they exit the classroom. The numbers are actually higher.

This is where the grand total of daily/habitual speakers comes from.

18,677 who use it daily both within and outside of school, and 53,471 who said they speak Irish daily outside of the education system ONLY.

72,148. <-- This is the Irish speaking core.

Approximately 1.8% of the population.

The people have spoken.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 30, 2010)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on December 30, 2010)

https://cnag.ie/index.php?page=feachtais&campaign_id=2

https://cnag.ie/index.php?page=feachtais&campaign_id=2&lang=en

Danny,
I don't think your conclusions follow from your arguments or are support by studies. You seem to indicate that the public response to Irish would improve if the requirements in school were loosened up a bit, a kind of olive branch offered to the youth. I greatly doubt that this would result in a) more speakers, b) more goodwill, or c) maintenance in the long term of compulsory classes in the other levels. Studies seem to show that choice in circumstances like Irish results in immediate drops in participation. I am not very familiar with Irish schools, but in my 11th and 12th grade years (last two years of high school) electives were fluff you did just to fill in the space unless you were hyper-academic. Irish no matter what is not fluff, so you do the reasoning ...

In addition, I would like to introduce this argument. I believe it is a moral duty for the Irish state to require Irish studies of students for the common good. This idea is formed from the unique position of Irish as a displaced national language and as a de jure first national language. Until that is changed, I don't think that they serve the common good by changing the education system which clearly indicates that it will result in less participation in Irish language studies.

(And please don't bring up Canada again. French is a national language there because of the inequalities the French speakers experienced. Most areas are historically from their inception one language or the other. A debatable case may be New Brunswick.)

I'll bring up whatever I want to bring up. The difference between Canada and Ireland is that in Canada it's about minority language rights. People acknowledge that French isn't something that most Canadians can speak or have the slightest interest in. Yet language rights are enshrined and actually carried through. In Ireland people pretend that Irish is an important part of their identity. If it was, more would speak it.

Less participation or more effective, efficient participation?

If you think resentment based on experiences of parents when they were younger aren't sometimes passed on then...

And French isn't 'a national language' in Canada. It's an official language. There is no national language. Ireland would be better off with two official languages, rather than a 'first official language' which is regarded as the national language.

Making Irish optional would help deal with the main reason the Irish revival has failed thus far. Too many teachers trying to teach a language they themselves cannot speak well.

Making Irish optional would be a terrible decision, splitting Irish into two subjects Irish Literature and just Irish (focusing on speech and written comprehension) the latter being compulsory would be better served for the language

Let's talk about the real issue here: what measures does the 20 year strategy contain regarding the Gaeltacht?

I never thought I'd be agreeing with anything that came out of Eoghan Harris's mouth but he speaks a lot of wisdom in the Seanad debate on the 20 year strategy which can be watched on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SHbac8vWfc

Two things I disagree with him on:

1) paying native speakers to speak Irish - how exactly would that work? Don't we already have that in the form of grants? If people need to be paid money to speak Irish then the language is already doomed.

2) equating the Irish language with jigs and reels p*sses me off no end. There is no equivalence.

Isn't the Scéim only worth about €200 per year?

Seánw, the history of French-speaking areas is more interesting than you portray. While most settlements were started off as either English or French-speaking, that does not mean that all settlements in Quebec were started off as French-speaking. Do you know the town called Hull just across the river from Ottawa in Quebec? Hull? Why is Hull French-speaking today? It actually was founded as Wrightstown by someone from Massachusetts. Quebec city, which I have been to (I enjoyed escargots in the old city), was founded of course by Jacques Cartier as a French-speaking settlement, but by the 1860s was 40% English-speaking (http://www.morrin.org/pages/anglos.php). There are placenames of English, French, and of course Indian, origin in Quebec, and to blithely assume that Quebec province has always been 100% French-speaking is quite untrue.

If only this thread could just be deleted. No one on this board has any influence in the government on its strategy and it provides no help to learners of Irish.

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Making Irish optional would help deal with the main reason the Irish revival has failed thus far. Too many teachers trying to teach a language they themselves cannot speak well.

The solution to that is teacher training; not downgrading the subject. I take it you haven't read the evidence based essay I linked to about the British experience with making language learning optional, and the obvious results?

Dóibh siúd ar mian é a léamh, tá teacht ara an méid a dúirt na Seanadóirí anseo:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2010/11/02/00005.asp

Tá amhras ormsa freisin faoi daoine a íoc: ach tá ciall leis an moladh seo, sílim:

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Nach bhfuil sé de cheart againn ghrád nua de chaomhantóir — daoine a labhrann an Ghaeilge agus a bhfuil an cultúr, an ceol agus an dúchas acu — a bhunú sa seirbhís phoiblí? Is rud iontach é, b’fhéidir, i gcomhthéacs na tuairimí atá agam ar an seirbhís phoiblí, go bhfuil mé ag iarraidh post den tsórt seo a thabhairt do dhaoine leis na scileanna chun an Ghaeilge agus an cultúr Gaelach a chaomhnú. Ní féidir linn éalú ón fhírinne go bhfuil an teanga deacair. Is rud amháin é rince Gaelach a mhúineadh, ach is rud eile é teanga chomh deacair a mhúineadh. Tá an-jab déanta ag an Seanadóir Ó Murchú agus ag daoine eile i gComhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann ó thaobh ceol de. Is teanga saibhir casta í an Ghaeilge. Ba cheart í a chaomhnú agus a chosaint, agus gan í a lagú, a laghdú nó a thruailliú. Caithfimid smaoineamh ar ghrád phoiblí nua — chaomhantóir na Gaeilge — a bhunú.

Nì bhaineann an lìne cainte seo le foghlaim na Gaeilge, baineann sè le gnìomhaire frithGhaeilge ag Hijackàil an foram seo chun a phointe polaitiùil a dhèanamh.

Tá an ceart agat, Ggn. Ní duine amháin ach cúpla gníomhaire in aghaidh Gaeilge an lae inniu atá ar an bhfóram seo. Is beag aitheantas a gheobhadh an gnáthfhoghlaimeoir in Éirinn anseo, duine atá bródúil as a chuid Gaeilge tar éis dó í a fhoghlaim ar scoil, barr maise a chur uirthi sa Ghaeltacht, agus téagar a chur inti le léitheoireacht. Bhí lucht na hársaíochta ariamh bainteach le staidéar ar an nGaeilge mar a bhíodh agus is maith ann iad agus is saibhrede muid a saothar. Is é an trua go bhfuil spíd ag cuid bheag acu le gnáthdhaoine nach bhfuil uathu ach Gaeilge an lae inniu a fhoghlaim agus a úsáid sa ghnáthshaol laethúil.

Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Eoghan Harris:

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Is teanga saibhir casta í an Ghaeilge. Ba cheart í a chaomhnú agus a chosaint, agus gan í a lagú, a laghdú nó a thruailliú. Caithfimid smaoineamh ar ghrád phoiblí nua — chaomhantóir na Gaeilge — a bhunú.

Ach amháin go gcaithfí fíric a aithint: bíonn teanga bheo ag síor-athrú. Daoine a labhraíonn nó a scríobhann í is leo í. Cén chaoi a bhféadfaí fál sreinge a chur timpeall uirthi? Rud chomh teibí le teanga?

A Thaidhgìn,

Nì dòigh liom go bhfuil muid ag caint faoin ud cèanna ach tà i bhfad barraìocht polaitìocht anseo - as Sasainis ar ndòigh.

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as Sasainis ar ndòigh

Tá ceart aiges na héinne a rogha rud a phlé anso agus a rogha teanga a dh'úsáid - Gaelainn nó Béarla.

Cana thaobh na graifeanna san? àèìòù. Ab í Gaelainn na hÉireann nó Gaelainn na hAlban atháimid a phlé anso? LOL

Ní cóir "gníomhaire frith-Ghaeilge" a bhaisteadh ar dhuine a deir go mb'fhéidir gur chóir abhar roghnach a dhéanamh don nGaelainn san Ardteistiméireacht.

Agus is ceart díriú ar an argóint, ní an duine.

(Message edited by aonghus on December 31, 2010)

is cóir, a Aonghuis, ní h-"is comhair". Tá an dá fhocal so curtha thrí chéile ar fad sa ChO, dar liom...

Please allow me to explain in English - it is New Year's Eve and I want to type quickly.

Cóir - noun or adjective meaning right, just, proper provision
Cómhair - noun meaning presence.

But in Ó Dónaill's dictionary (reputedly the distillation of the brains of the Gaeltacht), cómhair meaning presence is written "cóir" (Cf. Dinneen saying this was a mistake), but then we have "i gcomhair" and "os comhair". Also "do chomhair" meaning "near" seems to be spelled "do chóir" in Ó Dónaill's dictionary - I don't have it in front of me and that last point is from memory. Whether that is because, eg Donegal is a dialect with nasalisation, and Ó Dónaill knew that "do chóir", a Donegal word, was pronounced definitely without nasalisation, regardless of the etymology, or whether (as I think) Ó Dónaill was simply confused over two basic words, I don't know...

Anyhow, Muskerry has weak or no nasalisation, and PUL spelled comhair cóir...

For those who are somewhat bewildered by David's last messages: I had made a mistake, typing "comhair" when I meant "cóir". I had corrected myself almost immediately, but obviously David say the wrong version.

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barr maise a chur uirthi sa Ghaeltacht

Cúis gháirí chugainn!

quote:

But in Ó Dónaill's dictionary (reputedly the distillation of the brains of the Gaeltacht), cómhair meaning presence is written "cóir" (Cf. Dinneen saying this was a mistake), but then we have "i gcomhair" and "os comhair".

Not true. "comhair" is under "comhair" not "cóir" in Ó Dónaill. I take your point about "de chomhair", though.

A Charmannaigh,

Nì hè sin an fàth a dùirt mè cad a dùirt mè.

Tà an ceart ag èinne Bèarla a ùsàid anseo - ar son foghlaim na Gaeilge? Nò an bhfuil dul amù ormsa maidir le cad is brì le 'daltaì na Gaeilge'?

Is dócha gur mithid "bunreacht" an suímh a lua arís:

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Fáilte go dtí ár gCláriomrá. Tá an t-acra seo curtha ar fáil ag Daltaí na Gaeilge chun an Ghaeilge a spreagadh; agus tá súil againn go mbainfidh tú taitneamh as. Má's tosaitheoir, cainteoir líofa nó cainteoir dúchais thú, glac páirt agus fáilte.

Welcome to the Daltaí na Gaeilge Discussion Boards. The Discussion Boards are provided by Daltaí na Gaeilge for the enjoyment and advancement of the Irish language. Whether a novice, advanced or native speaker, feel free to join in.


Táthar ag iarraidh ort go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge.

We do request that you keep your postings polite and related to the Irish language.

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Tà an ceart ag èinne Bèarla a ùsàid anseo - ar son foghlaim na Gaeilge?

"General Discussion (Irish and English)" - "Irish AND English", a Ggn.

Recte: ar son fhoghlaim na Gaeilge - dh'fhágais an séimhiú ar lár

Hmm.

An gciallaíonn sé sin nach mór gach rud a scríobh as Gaeilge agus as Béarla?

Nó an mbeadh "Irish or English" níos cruinne?

Táimid tithe arís i ngaiste an meitiphlé, sílim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-discussion

A Ailín, I got mixed up as I was quoting from memory. Yes, it is only "de chóir" which should be "de chomhair". But maybe Ó Dónaill knew from his native dialect that the phrase tended not to be nasalised - there may have been a reason for his choice. Or maybe he disagreed with Dinneen over the origin of the phrase (in which case I doubt anyone living has the knowledge of Dinneen, who I would back every time).