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Grma
Member Username: Grma
Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:46 pm: | |
If anyone is interested: http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1219/media-2874446.html# I have a question: shouldn't the headline have "ón" (from the) instead of "ó" (from)? |
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Raic
Member Username: Raic
Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:54 pm: | |
Since it's "Uachtarán na hÉireann" then ó is correct because the genitive is being used. When the genitive is used you only use the definite article once. If you said "Ón Uachtarán na hÉireann" you would be saying something like "From the the president of Ireland" (double the) instead of "From the president of Ireland" because "Uachtarán na hÉireann" means "The President of Ireland" in this case. So you don't need to use ón (ó + an) because "na" is taking care of that role already. If it was just "Uachtarán" then it would be "ón Uachtarán". That's how I understand it anyway, Seaghán |
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Grma
Member Username: Grma
Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 02:07 pm: | |
Hi Raic. Thanks. That's what I suspected but I thought I would double check - I didn't think RTÉ would be making a mistake. |
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Raic
Member Username: Raic
Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 02:48 pm: | |
Glad to clear things up... I wasn't sure how great my explanation was. Thanks for the link by the way. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10904 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 03:53 pm: | |
An impressive illustration of what a learner can achieve! Having been brought up in Ardoyne in Belfast , Mary MacAleese had little opportunity to learn Irish. When first elected, she spoke almost none. And now she is fluent and confident (and chose to learn Irish with a clear Ulster dialect) A sensible message, too. |
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Hugo
Member Username: Hugo
Post Number: 89 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 07:03 pm: | |
quote:a clear Ulster dialect Not so clear Ulster sometimes. She says "fríd a bhfuil le déanamh", using the Donegal form "fríd" (=CO "tríd"), but pronouncing "déanamh" as "dyehniv" (Munster/CO) instead of Donegal "dyehnoo" (níl IPA agam, sorry). And I don't mean to nitpick , or criticise - I agree with Aonghus.(She's had the benefit of private tutoring of course. Which helps.) |
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The_lilywhites
Member Username: The_lilywhites
Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 07:23 pm: | |
A group/like to make on FB: The awkward moment when you are in a higher level than the president in Oideas Gael! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3759 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 07:43 pm: | |
Nice. (But since you all know I'm a nitpicker, I can't help saying that gac, amac, eacnamaíoct etc and abhaille hurt my ears... But if she has a good teacher I guess she'll soon get rid of these mistakes) (Message edited by Lughaidh on December 19, 2010) Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 07:52 pm: | |
Oh... I wouldn't have listened to it had Lughaidh not pointed out amac, abhaille etc - oh dear! Why is she even delivering this address in Irish? It is arrogance to deliver a speech in poorly pronounced Irish - and a lack of concern for the language. Why is she even delivering a Christmas address at all? She is not the Queen - she is just a politician. Who wants to hear a politician at Christmas? What has Christmas even got to do with her? I think there would be anger indeed in England if David Cameron decided to deliver the Queen's speech himself. I don't understand this at all. The whole thing strikes me as simply unpleasant. |
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The_lilywhites
Member Username: The_lilywhites
Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 09:22 pm: | |
Well someone has to do it! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3761 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 10:39 pm: | |
quote:Why is she even delivering a Christmas address at all? She is not the Queen - she is just a politician. Even if she were the Queen, like, why would she deliver a Christmas address? quote:Who wants to hear a politician at Christmas? I'd even say : Who wants to hear a politician? lol quote:I don't understand this at all. The whole thing strikes me as simply unpleasant. In Fra.nce, on January 1st, every single year, the president delivers a speech of good wishes for the new year. Every year he takes the p*ss out of us. Broadcast on all channels at the same time (if I remember well). So then you just have to turn the tv off and to go and do something else... Cibith. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Grma
Member Username: Grma
Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2010
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 02:04 am: | |
Corkirish wrote, "It is arrogance to deliver a speech in poorly pronounced Irish - and a lack of concern for the language." This logic is appalling. According to it, learners should never speak Irish in public. Obviously I didn't think the president's pronunciation was native level, but equally I didn't think it was abominable either. And I know you'll say, "Not so, not all learners have poor pronunciation" to try and cover yourself, but I also know from your views on other threads that what you consider "good" pronunciation is almost unobtainable. Isn't that part of its charm to you? Public speaking in Irish cannot be reserved for native speakers - for practical reasons. Despite what we all may wish, there aren't enough of them. So unfortunately a lot of Irish will be spoken by those who learnt it. I don't see how that's arrogance, but arrogance is a bit like ignorance - it's easy to presume in people, and says more about the beholder than who they're speaking about. Indeed, to suggest that learners who have the audacity to speak their Irish in public fora are "arrogant" is, to put it mildly, unfathomable to me. But I expect that this was the sort of response you wanted when you thought to make such a provocative comment, no? As for why a message was given - it is standard practice in most countries for the head of state to offer such one for 'the holidays' or for new year, as Lughaidh points out. Comparisons to Britain are irrelevant. It was posted here for linguistic purposes. (Message edited by grma on December 20, 2010) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10906 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 04:06 am: | |
David, the President of Ireland is our Head of State, as the Queen is yours. The role of President in Ireland is above party politics. Making this type of speech is precisely what she is elected to do. She recorded the speech in both English and Irish; as I understand it she knows that her Irish has limitations, but is making every effort to improve. |
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Taidhgín
Member Username: Taidhgín
Post Number: 1061 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 11:26 am: | |
quote:Oh... I wouldn't have listened to it had Lughaidh not pointed out amac, abhaille etc - oh dear! Why is she even delivering this address in Irish? It is arrogance to deliver a speech in poorly pronounced Irish - and a lack of concern for the language. Why is she even delivering a Christmas address at all? She is not the Queen - she is just a politician. Who wants to hear a politician at Christmas? What has Christmas even got to do with her? I think there would be anger indeed in England if David Cameron decided to deliver the Queen's speech himself. I don't understand this at all. The whole thing strikes me as simply unpleasant. Corkirish: You're joking. Right? Surely regarding some member of an international aristocracy as a "Queen" a "Monarch" and giving such a person precedence over all others is anachronistic in our modern world. It prolongs the ancient and medieval idea of a hierarchy claiming authority that supposedly flows down from God through one family and their relatives. Everyone else should know their place and, worse still, their class. In Ireland we love our republic. We imagine that equality is a good thing. We cherish our 1916 Proclamation. We have our written constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. We value democracy. Not the so-called democracy of the US where the mega-rich buy power, wage war at will for profit, and ignore the poor but our own democracy of proportionnal representation and referendums and political parties that anyone can join and promote the welfare of their community. Our President was elected by us. She is not a politician. She was a journalist and a university professor. She is a distinguished lady. She is our representative and I am proud of her. As for her Irish she has made a wonderful effort to achieve fluency in our First Official Language. That status seeks to right the wrongs of centuries of oppression. It acknowleges the hurt inflicted on generations of Irish speakers since the overthrow of the Gaelic order. It expresses the hope that we may preserve and continually renew our culture and language in our future as a free nation. I once had the privilege to meet our President in Áras an Uachtaráin. I was one of a group and when she heard my name she spoke Irish to me and spoke it well. Afterwards when we all mingled as we dined on tea and biscuits she and I had a chat. She told me she was listening to the CD of a book by Pól Ó Muirí and following the text. Some achievement for a busy lady. Our first Lady. I almost feel as offended by your comments as you would if I were to comment on your Queen. However let's be friends despite the misunderstandings between us.. I still suspect you were teasing us. I admire her for addressing those of us who cherish Irish and I am certainly not going to make the mistake of concentrating on criticism of the medium rather than considering and absorbing the message. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 841 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 12:49 pm: | |
quote:We value democracy. LOL! quote:We value democracy. Not the so-called democracy of the US where the mega-rich buy power, wage war at will for profit, and ignore the poor Of course, none of those things could ever happen in Erin's blessed isle . . . . quote:Our President was elected by us. She is not a politician. She was a journalist and a university professor. She is a distinguished lady. She is our representative and I am proud of her. Er, yeah. Her function as president - which is supposed to be strictly apolitical (despite being a Fianna Fáil apointee) - did not stop her from giving us all her tuppence worth on public sector workers' supposed "under performance" as well as likening northern Unionist attitudes to Nationalists as akin to that of Nazi Germany's towards the Jews. "Building bridges" indeed . . . quote:As for her Irish she has made a wonderful effort to achieve fluency in our First Official Language. That status seeks to right the wrongs of centuries of oppression. It acknowleges the hurt inflicted on generations of Irish speakers since the overthrow of the Gaelic order. It expresses the hope that we may preserve and continually renew our culture and language in our future as a free nation. You wouldn't happen to be McAleese's speech writer by any chance, would you Taidhgín?! LOL quote:Some achievement for a busy lady. Our first Lady. Well, yeah, I suppose rubberstamping a piece of legislation once every few months, can be a real pain in the wrist. And how she can possibly get by on a miserly €325,000 salary a year (in addition to the €1.2 million she has received since 2006 in tax-free presidential allowances) is beyond me . . . |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 958 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 01:03 pm: | |
I say good for her that she has a Christmas message, and that she has developed a good level of Irish. Both things we should all try to cultivate! quote:It is arrogance to deliver a speech in poorly pronounced Irish - and a lack of concern for the language. Or she wants to make an effort to share her Christmas to people in Irish. Who's looking through cynical colored glasses? What good is the view, don't say a peep until you are the equivalent of a seanchaí? Incredibly defeatist. Enough with the hypercriticism! I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 842 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 01:25 pm: | |
Well, there's no doubt that her Irish is appalling but to be fair to her, she hasn't been learning for all that long so hopefully she'll improve with time. My question is; why exactly do we need a Christmas presidential address? Did McAleese introduce this? I don't remember Mary Robinson nor Patrick Hillary before her giving a Christmas address. It seems to be an attempt to copy the British with their "Queen's Speech" (anything the Brits can do, we can do better . . . ) or an attempt to show that McAleese does more than just sitting around all day in her pyjamas watching Oprah and munching on chocolate digestives while waiting for that call to go and cut the ribbon at a new care centre for the elderly in Ballyjamesduff or some place. But, hang on a sec, we can't afford to open new care centres for the elderly any more! I mean, we're already struggling to pay McAleese's €325,000 salary as it is!! |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 329 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 02:16 pm: | |
"appalling" Tá sí ag streachailt chun teacht i dtaithí ar fhuaim nó dhó ach ní dóigh liom go ndéarfainn go bhfuil Gaeilge Mary McAleese “appalling.” Mar dhálta na Gaeilge, molaim í as iarracht a dhéanamh agus as sampla a thabhairt. Dála an scéil, tá sé de nós ag daoine i bPoblacht na hÉireann meas a léiriú don uachtarán. Is iad an t-aon dream nach ndéanfadh a leithead ná Sinn Féin Poblachtach agus fiú ansin .... |
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Rothaí
Member Username: Rothaí
Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2010
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 02:43 pm: | |
quote:Not the so-called democracy of the US where the mega-rich buy power, wage war at will for profit, and ignore the poor What mean-spirited and completely stupid things to say about Americans! You shouldn't use this forum to spread your anti American bullshit! Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh. |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 963 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 02:54 pm: | |
The stereotype runs both ways, from glorification of Ireland, and vilification of the US. There is truth in both, and truth if the message was switched. But isn't it funny how a simple Christmas message, on the face a sign of joy and peace, could descend in such a way? Or become so completely divorced from the Irish language? I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 843 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 03:54 pm: | |
quote:Dála an scéil, tá sé de nós ag daoine i bPoblacht na hÉireann meas a léiriú don uachtarán. Is iad an t-aon dream nach ndéanfadh a leithead ná Sinn Féin Poblachtach agus fiú ansin .... Creideann tusa mar sin go bhfuil diantoirmeasc ar éinne McAleese agus an Uachtaránacht a cháineadh? Agus gurb iad an t-aon dream amháin a bhíonn cáinteach ná cámasach ar McAleese ná Sinn Féin Poblachtach? An ag magadh chugainn atás tú?! Níl baint ná ceangal agamsa mar dhuine le haon pháirtí ná le haon ghasra polaitiúil ach is róchuma dhod leithéidse sin! Nách mairg ná léiríonn meas don ndaonlathas agus do chead cainte an tsaoránaigh a thuairimí a nochtadh! quote:You shouldn't use this forum to spread your anti American bullshit! I see. Perhaps you might demonstrate for us please how the United States of America is not a state "where the mega-rich buy power, wage war at will for profit, and ignore the poor"? |
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Grma
Member Username: Grma
Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2010
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 04:08 pm: | |
I wish I'd never posted the link now. I posted it because it was on the front page of RTÉ, because it was a good indication of the standard of official Irish, because Mary McAleese is famously a learner, and because she speaks in the Ulster dialect. The content of the message was secondary in my mind to the sociolinguistic aspects of it. No one should presume any sort of endorsement or disendorsement based on a simple link. I hadn't expected it to turn daltai.com into politics.ie, and in future I will certainly think twice before posting anything that can possibly be misconstrued, dragged off topic or turned into a mischievous to-and-fro. |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 331 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 04:11 pm: | |
A Charmannaigh, Ní dóigh liom gur ionann meas a léiriú don uachtarán agus barúil polaitiúil. Ach, i ndáirire, bhí mé ag déanamh pointe do na daoine nach Éireannaigh iad seachas tú féin. Is féidir an tUachtarán a cháineadh dar ndóigh, ach ní thugtar "McAleese" uirthi go minic, caithfidh mé a rá, beag beann ar cibé barúil atá ag duine di nó dá culrá polaitiúil. Ní bhaineann sé le do thuairim. Sin mo phointe. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 844 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 04:46 pm: | |
quote:Ní bhaineann sé le do thuairim. Fastaím! Tánn tusa suas ad iarraidh a chuir ina luí gaidhte orainn anso go bhfuil an t-uachtarán ó cháineadh ar fad ar fad? Nea-meabhair siar ó thuaidh a deirimse! Cad ina thaobh sa riach go mbeadh McAleese ná aon pholaiteoir eile saor ó cháineadh? Pusachán prioslach a chuirfeása ar dhuine! quote:Is féidir an tUachtarán a cháineadh dar ndóigh, ach ní thugtar "McAleese" uirthi go minic, caithfidh mé a rá, beag beann ar cibé barúil atá ag duine di nó dá culrá polaitiúil. Cé acu ab fhearra leatsa mar sin? Mary Naofa Ró-Bheannaithe McAleese? |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 332 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:04 pm: | |
A Charmanaigh, Sílim gur soiléir mo phointe. Is cuma liomsa cad a thugann tusa uirthi i ndeireadh na dála. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 845 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:19 pm: | |
quote:Is cuma liomsa cad a thugann tusa uirthi i ndeireadh na dála. Sin é bua an daonlathais anois agat é, a dhuine. Tá sé de cheart ages nach éinne a thuairim a nochtadh. Gura fada a bheidh amhlaidh, do do dheargainneoinse. |
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Caoimhín
Board Administrator Username: Caoimhín
Post Number: 184 Registered: 01-1999
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:29 pm: | |
quote:But isn't it funny how a simple Christmas message, on the face a sign of joy and peace, could descend in such a way? Yes. And unfortunate too. Caoimhín Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam. |
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