I am wondering what the native or fluent speakers here do when they read Irish. Particularly I am wondering if you read your own pronunciation for a spelling or you read the spelling's pronunciation. For instance, when you see thoisigh do you read it or do you read thosaigh, or some other local form you have (or vice versa)? I am thinking of cases in which the forms are close to one another, léi and léithe, domh and dom etc. I assume that when the forms are quite different you read the written form, e.g., tuiscint and tuigbheáil. Or do you? But what about níonn and déanann? Or tí/tchí and feiceann? I listen to audiobooks and I notice that sometimes the reader uses their native/dialectical pronunciation even though it is not indicated in the spelling, and at other times I notice they follow the spelling (generally standard) even though the form is probably not native to them, or they picked it up through school. And another question, are you taught to read the dialect into the standard, or the standard, or a mix? Is this at all conscious? (And I am referring to regular text, or narration, not dialog in a story in which one would put on the dialect in one's mind perhaps.) I am asking too, because this is not my experience at all in English, and it is hard to get a handle on this interplay. The spelling I am taught and the dialect I speak in English are both standard here is the US. Or rather I naturally read my dialect into the spelling. Also does it seem like this is the way it is going, that all speakers are reading their dialect into the standard spelling, and those reading dialectical spelling read their dialect into it?

Also I'll come out front and clarify that I am interested in experiences based on the in-the-street reality, not necessarily what one's opinions are of the standard, or gripes about book publishers spelling practices or teacher's ignorance (unless of course they pertain to your situation). Thanks for any of your feedback/experiences.

Seán, the in-the-street reality is that the numbers of native speakers reading literature in their own dialect is very tiny (the numbers of native speakers reading any Irish of any kind is very tiny). The numbers reading literature in another dialect - surely approximately zero. The numbers reading Standard Irish are very low too - but at least no zero - your question might apply to native speakers reading the CO - otherwise the question doesn't really apply.

The question might apply to fluent learners reading dialectal literature. But here too, the numbers doing so are very low. The number of books in print in Munster Irish? Well there would be Séadna, Fiche Blian ag Fás, Peig, Machnamh sean-mhná, An t-Oileánach and some more recent ones from Kerry including An Mám ó dheas, and a wider range of literature is available in out of print but stil findable editions - but you are really talking about a few dozen books. More recent ones include anything by Pádraig Ó Cíobháin and Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé - I would be surprised if there were two dozen books in print in Munster Irish.

I would be interested if native speakers on Daltaí could post and let us know if they have ever read any books written in dialects other than those they speak. Or even as much as a paragraph. Or a sentence?

Corkirish,
The people whom I interact with are native/fluent for the most part, all seem to be avid readers, and flex their dialectical muscles to a greater or lesser degree on the internet. My question is not dialect specific but focused more on the the native/fluent speakers reading practices for ANY text, whatever the number of people is, rather than if they have stuff in their dialect available. That's why I said gripes about book publishers spelling practices. Since this is the reality, I want to know how they read in this reality.

When I read "in my head" (I don't know if it's the right English expression), I pronounce in Donegal Irish -- if I wanted to pronounce according to the dialect in which the text is written, I'd need to focus my attention on right pronunciation of a dialect that isn't "natural" to me and I wouldn't quite understand what I'm reading! I can focus on the meaning when I use a Donegal pronunciation since it's the way I speak - I don't need to think about it. In Connemara or Munster Irish I'd need to remember and apply the rules I know about their pronunciation...

When I read aloud, it would depend on the purpose of my reading : if the most important is pronouncing the text as it should be, or if it is understanding and analyzing the meaning...

Okay, Lughaidh, to pick your brain. I present this text to you, would you read the Donegal conjugations/declensions, or would you simply pronounce what is written but with Donegal pronunciation. Anyone else jump in if they want.

quote:

Agus oíche aréir chuir an cumann glaoch uirthi agus mar sin broghnaíomar an lá a chaitheamh inniu sa chistin, cáca dúinn féin agus cácaí dóibh siúd freisin. Agus nuair a bhíomar críochnaithe thosaigh sé ag cur sneachta arís agus thosaíomar ag ól.

Seán,

I wrote that most native speakers don't do any reading in Irish, and you immediately replied about very specific native speakers you are in contact with. This is why I get little out of the "debate" function of Daltaí, because the conversations slip and slide and are at cross purposes. It is as if I said "most women are shorter than men", and you replied "that's not true, because I know several tall women". I think you'll find that "publisher's spelling practices" you referred to mean that the question you raise rarely comes up. Yes, Lughaidh is probably a good example of a fluent learner who would read dialect - he can probably give you a good answer. The number of native speakers who could answer your question must be very, very, very low.

I prefer the language-learning function of Daltaí which is what I am trying to focus on. So I'll concentrate on those threads!!

David,
I am afraid you didn't address my questions and got into a territory that I am trying to avoid for this thread, that is why I replied to you in that way. You say "I think you'll find that 'publisher's spelling practices' you referred to mean that the question you raise rarely comes up." But even if we took your scenario then I am interested in how they read the standard texts. Do they read the dialect into that? Obviously this is why the question is pertinent to me. Someone, somewhere is reading Irish that isn't completely reflective of their dialect one way or another, so I am interested in that process.

quote:

The number of native speakers who could answer your question must be very, very, very low.

Okay, well, let them speak up then. Aonghus reads. I'm sure Carmanach reads. Does Bríd read? What about the many lurkers, I know you're out there. What about Abigail, she has a head on her shoulders. Dennis? Taidhgín? Etc. Come on, David, don't paint the picture like nobody's reading!


angafraidh Líofa
antain Líofa
an_dreoilín Líofa
brida Líofa
coc Líofa
conallach Líofa
domhnall líofa
gaelscéal Líofa
guevara Líofa
lughaidh Líofa
nic_ailín líofa
rg_cuan Líofa
séamas_Ó_neachtain líofa
tiogarlacha Líofa
turasoir líofa
kelly_d líofa (?)
smaointe líofa agus i gcónaí ag foghlaim
taidhgín Líofa go leor.
braoin líofacht
macdaibhid Native Irish speaker
Áine_beag native speaker
brenda Native Speaker
brídmhór Native Speaker
roisindubh native speaker and fluent
carmanach Near native speaker standard

Etc.!

A data point:
When Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin was preparing the CD Gugalaí Gug, he gave audio recordings to the children to learn from rather than texts. This was to avoid them proununcing as it is written rather than as it would be spoken in the dialect.

quote:

Aonghus reads.

True. But I do not qualify for the narrow definition of native speaker. Neo native answers better - but one who has been exposed to a range of dialects and idiolects.

I do tend to avoid words not familiar to me in books I read aloud for my daughter: I struggle with an Ulster word like coimhéad, for example.

I'll tend to use forms I am more comfortable with; but usually I'll follow the text.

Aonghus, you are a native speaker according to every dictionary in the world.

And David is right, native speakers rarely read or write in Irish.

quote:

Okay, Lughaidh, to pick your brain. I present this text to you, would you read the Donegal conjugations/declensions, or would you simply pronounce what is written but with Donegal pronunciation.

I read it in Donegal Irish, even the words/forms that don't exist in Donegal, I read them *as they would be pronounced if they existed in Donegal* :-)

Except thosaigh etc, because it looks like thoisigh so I can say thoisigh instead. I wouldn't do it if "thosnaigh" were written.

I'm not a native speaker but I'm only one or two generations removed from native speakers and I've lived and worked among native speakers. I've never spoken English to anyone whom I knew to have Irish. Even if they have only a little I give them a chance to speak it. No native speaker that knows me considers my Irish so inferior that they had to speak English to me. Thankfully the question never arises. I seem to have reached a level of fluency that reassures native speakers that I will understand whatever they say. When I visit the Gaeltacht everyone that knows me speaks Irish in my presence. One old guy in the pub told me once "Ach ab é go bhfuil tusa anseo, a Thaidhgín, ní bheadh Gaeilge ar bith á labhairt againn anseo." I loved those nights in the pub. The challenges. The singing. The humour.

I was present one night when the bar went silent as John Beag Ó Flatharta sang "Cóilín Pháraig Shéamais" on TV and I can still hear the cheer that went up from the old-time currach fishermen when he sang the verse:

"Ba ghaiscíoch ins a' gcurrach thú,
Is tú ' sháródh an gála.
Is ba bhinne leat ná ceol na bpíb,
gíoscán na maidí rámha."

Do I read? Of course I do. What? Gaelscéal, Foinse, Alan Titley occasionally. Thrown around my bedroom at the moment are old books: An Fhiannaíocht by Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh, An Chéad Chloch by Pádraig Ó Conaire, and others, something translated by Mac Siomóin from Catalan -- good description of a plane taking off and landing in African jungles etc -- others that I can't get into. My favourite modern author? Maidhc Dainín.

What do I think of having to defend my standard of Irish on this discussion board?

Smaoiním ar an seanrá: An t-uan ag múineadh méiligh dá máthair.

Why can not we all take each other at face value as learners of Irish here on this forum and ask and answer questions as honestly as we can. Otherwise we may have to submit proof of our competence. Me? I have a photo of myself and a few youngster from Inis Mór, Árainn, putting our lives at risk out fishing from a currach. I ruined mo chuid éadaí that day sitting on soft tar that was put over the tears in the canvas! Ach labhraíomar Gaeilge an lá sin. I sailed with muintir Cheathrú Thaidhg around the Stacks of Broadhaven (and learnt the words of an obscene song). I got drenched in Cléire, drunk in Kruger's, attended a funeral with Irish-speakers in An Chloch Mhór, Acaill, and enjoyed a holiday in An Rinn in a B&B where both Bean an Tí and Fear an Tí had a very well thought out attitude to the language: use it or lose it. I'll go back there again. No university degrees. A bit of farming, a bit of fishing, some building, and the B&B.

The sales statistics show how many people read Irish. The unpalatable fact is that the native speakers of Irish have a standard of their own that they are more than happy to use on every occasion: English. Those who devote themselves to scholarship obviously read voraciously until they aquire sufficient qualifications to earn a good living. After that they may or may not continue reading Irish. How do I know? I don't but statistics don't lie. Library books in Irish haven't been taken out in years and sales of books in Irish are lucky to top 300. Lig Sinn i gCathú, Súil le Breith, and such like excepted.

As for being conscious of dialect when reading that only arises if obvious dialect phrases and spellings are used. I feel strongly that Irish folk songs should be sung in the original dialect however. I deplore any sort of standardisation in such songs. It ruins the rhyme, the rhythm, and the matching of the words to the original air. Otherwise I can admire a good translation in modern béarlagar as much as de Barra's modernisation of old texts. Hey, is teanga bheo bheathaíoch í.

''One old guy in the pub told me once "Ach ab é go bhfuil tusa anseo, a Thaidhgín, ní bheadh Gaeilge ar bith á labhairt againn anseo."''


What area was that, please? Mayo, I guess?

Ceart agat.

quote:

Ach ab é go bhfuil tusa anseo

To be honest I am not sure of the spelling or grammar of that phrase. Thinking about it now it sounded something like "ach ga beag go bhfuil ..." I took it to be "ach ab é go bhfuil" but it could even be "ach gurb é go bhfuil" ... I do not know.

"Ach ab é go bhfuil" does exist, I saw it spelt like that in Ulster texts.

Anyone know if Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin is a native speaker? What dialect used to singing or cd's of his books?

I think he was born in Aghamore, a town outside the Gaeltacht.

He is from a Galltacht area in Mayo, but I think he learned his Irish in Conamara. Since he lives in An Spidéal.

What do people consider a ¨native speaker¨? There seems to be different points of view.

quote:

True. But I do not qualify for the narrow definition of native speaker. Neo native answers better

What´s ¨neo native¨?

Paploo,

Surly that has been discussed on daltai.com a thousand times?

In my case, I was raised speaking Irish and English in Dublin.

So was my father. But neither of us has a connection to a Gaeltacht.

What "native speaker" is is likely to lead to a flame war; but some linguists refer to people in my situation as neo native.

Aonghus, take no notice of people on the internet. These people are just a minority.

You are a native speaker, I can also back that up by every dictionary in the world.

Native speaker = someone who has spoken a language since birth.

You are also aren't a native English speaker then if thats the case and the rest of people in Ireland, since their ancestors once spoke Irish.

Reference: www.dictonary.com

Main Entry: native speaker
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a person who has spoken the language in question from early childhood

Saying people are neo natives is just silly, and this is just basically looking at the language with a magnifying glass which isn't relevant. If thats the case there are no native English speaker in Ireland.

I find the distinction is actually a useful one. But I don't wish to get drawn into (another) unproductive discussion on the topic.

Nor I.

From what I can see then if thats the case, Ireland has no native speakers in any language.

Because Ireland was once fully Irish speaking then made a language shift to English and they can't be native English speakers, and now people are going to Irish again and now they can't be native Irish speakers!

People are making it into a catch 22 situation!

Ah but! In the Gaeltacht -- if Peig is to be believed -- everyone in Tigh Uí Chorráin (?) spoke English to the children "because they'd learn the Irish soon enough from the locals." Since the establishment of Government schemes to promote the Official Gaeltacht there were occasions when the children were strictly required to speak Irish such as a visit from Oifigeach na nDeontas or Cigire na Gaeilge.

I hope those were the bad bad old days and that Mama agus Deaide sa Ghaeltacht speak Irish only to their children now "because they'll learn the English soon enough from the locals." Are those bilingual children "native" or "neo-native" speakers of either language?

I think I know the answer to that one: if their parents were native speakers etc. But relatively few native Irish speakers were lucky enough to get an Irish-speaking spouse from the Gaeltacht. Many Gaeltacht children are reared in a mixed language household. I remember attending a Merriman (?) lecture on the distance travelled by natives of Gaoth Dobhair to find marriage partners.

Initially, 19th century, they stayed local. The bicycle extended their range somewhat. The car brought them further afield. Emigration resulted in wives from the UK and the US finding themselves tending chickens ar an Screabán when their husbands inherited the farm.

Nowadays with all the activity associated with TG4, RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta, and Údarás na Gaeltachta complexes people from different Gaeltacht areas find themselves meeting more than heretofore so .... Hey, that's none of our business.

I know it doesn't earn much credit from some contributors on this forum but my children spoke nothing but Irish until school-going age even though reared within twenty miles of Dublin's spire. Their mother is a native speaker and all their education, primary and secondary, was through Irish. Most of their teachers throughout were native Irish speakers and they can still imitate them with ease and to devastating effect.

All of which I would like to go to prove that over-emphasis on dialect is very much a storm in a teacup. It is not the main issue. Irish is going to need friendly support from all users -- whether from native-, or neo-native speakers, learners at all levels and academic scholars --if it is to survive.

quote:

Because Ireland was once fully Irish speaking then made a language shift to English

It's not that simple.

Irish has been multilingual for over a thousand years. A variety of speech communities have existed for centuries and language shift can go both ways. It's a fallacy to think that everyone in Ireland is descended from native Irish speakers at some point in the past, although it's true that Irish was the main language of the population for most of recorded history on the island. Some Irish people feel no emotional connection to the language because there's no record or memory of Irish ever being spoken in the family. But I digress...

quote:

People are making it into a Catch 22 situation

My family name is Yossarian. I would like a tattoo of this in Celtic to show my pride in my Irish ancestry.

Hi Danny, hows your Irish going after 3 years?

Very slowly. Mainly focusing on Irish history rather than the language.

quote:

Saying people are neo natives is just silly, and this is just basically looking at the language with a magnifying glass which isn't relevant.

If it is silly, then it is silly to hear a difference between John Ghráinne's Irish and the Irish of most neo-native speakers as well. And I know you do hear a difference.

quote:

then made a language shift to English and they can't be native English speakers, and now people are going to Irish again and now they can't be native Irish speakers!

And how did the Irish people learn their English at the first place? Haven't they learnt it by hearing native speakers?
While neo-native speakers haven't learnt Irish by hearing native speakers, otherwise they wouldn't be called neo-native speakers.

===If it is silly, then it is silly to hear a difference between John Ghráinne's Irish and the Irish of most neo-native speakers as well. And I know you do hear a difference.===

Ofcourse there is a difference, you would have to be deaf if you couldn't hear the difference between Máirtín Tom Sheánín and Hector.

So it is not silly to say that people are neo-natives when they are.

quote:

But I do not qualify for the narrow definition of native speaker. Neo native answers better ...

I understand. I put in fluent to to accommodate the wide range of views here on "native" Irish. I tried, somewhat unsuccessfully, to skirt that topic. But, hey, 'tis life! For my part, I think neo-native is an important distinction, or a native of Galltacht Irish (perhaps?), and I don't think it offends the people who are those natives who have no proximate connection to the Gaeltacht. Certainly there is a difference, just as we know people learning off of learners will have some distinct qualities in their language to mark that. But over time it will build into the overall Irish picture as the linguistic lines between Gaeltacht and Galltacht fade which must eventually happen in order for the nation to become truly bilingual. If things go well, then, the question will resolve itself in future generations.

No matter what we think about the writers' and publishers' methods, we have the reality that there is still a divergence in text and pronunciation (why would we have such debates all the time about it otherwise!). The question seemed useful to me because it is not taught or discussed in any books that I've seen. Maybe it is unconsciously picked up amongst the native/fluent, but there have been no tactics or pointers I've run across. Thanks for the feedback, Aonghus and Lughaidh.

---

(Message edited by seánw on December 20, 2010)

quote:

But over time it will build into the overall Irish picture as the linguistic lines between Gaeltacht and Galltacht fade which must eventually happen in order for the nation to become truly bilingual. If things go well, then, the question will resolve itself in future generations.

Seán, I admire your unwavering enthusiasm and positivity but you don't seriously believe that the "nation" can become "truly bilingual", do you? That train left town a long, long, long time ago, my friend. The linguistic lines between Gaeltacht and Galltacht will "fade"? Er, yes, the Gaeltacht will disappear over the course of the coming century and into the next one. It is already native Anglophone middle class hobby-speakers and career Gaeilgeoirí and their Anglophone Irish which have the whip hand in this, the last period of the Irish language's long history. Irish will survive as Latin or Cornish survives, no longer a community language with native speakers speaking indigenous Irish, but a sort of relic frozen in time. It will be, as it already is in Dublin and other places where the language has long died out as a native language, a slave to its master, the English language.

I've no problem at all with anyone learning and studying Irish now or in the future, but it really is time to get real about where Irish is heading. We should make the most of our time listening and enjoying good Gaeltacht Irish while we still have the opportunity to go and hear it and speak with its speakers because the day will come when all that will be left are MP3 recordings on the internet.

Let me say this briefly: I agree with Carmanach but my attitude is different. Carmanach sees a glass half-empty. The glass I see is more than half-full. When I talk to youngsters in Irish and they reply fluently with ease and with pride I am happy.

Sadly, the coming election may bring a party to power that was founded with opposition to measures supporting "the Irish Revival" as one of its core policies and now they want to remove it as a compulsory subject for Leaving Cert. If they succeed it will soon be easy to re-unite Ireland.

Carmanach,
The will that I used was not a prediction on my part but a necessary outcome if things go well. I have fundamental doubts that any speaking community can be truly bilingual for any long length of time, like over generations. I suspect that one of the languages would be consigned to substratum status by necessity. I have not researched historical data on this, but I know of no society that achieved a Patrick Pearse style bilingualism and maintained it for any significant amount of time. I would love to be corrected. It seems societies always have one main languages and any number of other languages for specific circumstances (law, worship, scholarship, etc.); or in the case of a place like Belgium, the languages are support by neighboring countries (so the language communities are larger than the national boundaries).
We have a different view of the language's vitality, I think. There is a narrow way to a better future for Irish, and there is a constant struggle between preserving Irish in its indigenous state and bringing in new speakers. And that balance also means that Irish may make changes which we all know are unacceptable to you. Let's just say the mighty wind knocks over the oak tree, but the bamboo tree stands to live another day. So I am optimistic, because it is the only position which I think is underrepresented. (And I speak of a sober optimism, not a sycophantic one.) I think the pessimism is sufficient for the day. Hey, and who wants to join a failing cause?! Not a good recruitment tool. How about, i ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin? And read the Art of War. There have been many skillful moves in favor of Irish over the last few decades.

And let me tell you, by nature I am pessimistic. I have to purposely oppose that because it isn't always a fair and accurate picture, and I just wouldn't keep up with Irish. My whole life at this point is "lost causes". And yet everyday the nay-sayers are proven wrong. Yes, it sucks, it's hard, and there is not always much consolation, but it's worth it. So that's where I come from. I think I am realistic in being hopeful. Perhaps I should start the St. Jude Society for the Irish Language.

Now with that said, the whole Irish language movement, and the Gaeltacht community, needs to be weaned off the government teet. Talk about guilt by association!

quote:

Because Ireland was once fully Irish speaking then made a language shift to English and they can't be native English speakers, and now people are going to Irish again and now they can't be native Irish speakers!

People are making it into a catch 22 situation!

Absolute and utter horse manure.

quote:

There is a narrow way to a better future for Irish, and there is a constant struggle between preserving Irish in its indigenous state and bringing in new speakers.

That is where I differ from you and most of the people on here apart from Lughaidh and CorkIrish (correct me if I'm wrong). For me the Gaeltacht is the Irish language. When that goes, the language goes with it until the last native Gaeltacht speaker is lowered into a hole in the ground. Irish learners in Dublin and elsewhere learn their Irish from other native English speakers. Few if any know or even bother to listen to native Gaeltacht speakers and many sadly view the indigenous form of the language as "gibberish from God knows where" as Taidhgín puts it. For me, bringing in new speakers starts and ends in the Gaeltacht - not in Blackrock and Rathfarnham.

quote:

And that balance also means that Irish may make changes which we all know are unacceptable to you.

It really is a very, very sad day indeed when native anglophones have the whip hand, and that is exactly what is happening. The problem here is that what should be purely a linguistic issue has been tainted by a politico-ideological agenda based upon romantic nationalism. It is native Gaeltacht speakers and they alone who will change the language.

The mindset of some individuals on here is that Irish is all a bit of a laugh. Irish should not be taken seriously like other European languages. Sure, any oul' thing'll do as long as you have your "cúpla focal". Native Gaeltacht speakers are the new "savages" speaking "gibberish" in "God know's where". And if you can barely string a sentence in Irish together and if you speak Irish like Borat or Inspector Clouseau speaks English, but sure, don't worry at all at all! You'll get a nice job for yourself on television 'cos you're "mad crack altogether" and all the other Anglophone learners will love you because you're "easy to understand, an' yer deadly crack, so you are!!".

quote:

For me, bringing in new speakers starts and ends in the Gaeltacht

It certainly starts there.

But without support for Irish in the Galltacht, any political will to do anything about the Gaeltacht will quickly vanish.

Is maol gualainn gan bráthair - we need both in a positive symbiosis; not in a playing of one against the other.

quote:

It is native Gaeltacht speakers and they alone who will change the language.

As it happens with all languages... but the people who deal with Irish and other minority languages don't know that (or pretend not to know that).
I mean, the English language doesn't evolve from the English classes in French or Spanish schools.
So Irish doesn't evolve from the speech of learners either.

Btw it's easy to see the difference :
- in the speech of native speakers, the evolution looks like this : declensions are disappearing (but not initial mutations), some of the conjugations are becoming analytic in some dialects
- in the speech of learners, everything is becoming simplified : disparition of the initial mutations, declensions, all non-English sounds, and the syntax is becoming English, ie. everything that doesn't exist in English...

Even though the language evolves in the Gaeltacht, not everything disappears : gh isn't replaced by g, ch isn't replaced by c, the initial mutations don't disappear, etc.

Lughaidh,

I'm just wondering about the first part of the language evolution you've mentioned for native speakers. You say the declensions are disappearing, I am curious about what this involves. Is the language moving towards a single declension, i.e. the genitives and plurals of all nouns (ignoring the irregular ones) are starting to be formed the same way.

If so, were there more declensions in the past?

Darran.

I wasn't going to comment further in this thread, which seems to be just for arguing [arguably, for trolling], with nothing that can be gained in terms of advancing my Irish, which is what I am focused on. So this is my last contribution to this thread. But as Ailín said "correct me if I am wrong", I would like to confirm that for me the Gaeltacht is the Irish language. When the Gaeltacht is gone, it is quiche lorraine in the clouds to think that all children are going to be taught Irish in school - for a start, native-speaking teachers will become rare, and the whole thing will be wound up swiftly. Just as Latin is taught as a dead language, the language will remain as a minority subject to be read (not used).

So, yes I agree with Ailín (Carmanach) and Lughaidh. But I go one iteration further - the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is not the real language. We discussed in another thread that forms like "do mo bhualadh" are etymologically wrong [as historically they are from "ag" and not "do"], and apparently not found in any dialect [am bhualadh in the south, go mo bualadh in the west, a' mo bhualadh in the north; dá bhualadh, which is not even in the Standard, is found but it is not the dominant form and comes from delenition of ghá bhualadh, also derived from "ag"]--I am still wondering but no one could tell me which dialect says "do mo bhualadh" - or which dialect in any part of Ireland has EVER said that. For me, the CO **probably** has a few made-up elements, but is probably largely based on forms that existed, in a kind of eeny-meeny-miny-mo approach, just like someone trying to combine Cockney with Scots with Scouse with Georgie agus leis an mbróig Átha Cliath. Its claim to be the product of the most common forms is often violated by its desire for simplicity (which is why the relative form of the verb, which is the most common form in the Gaeltacht, is not in the CO; and also why they chose "sa siopa" instead of "sa tsiopa", despite this form existing only in a very small part of the Gaeltacht--I suppose they decided that having "abolished" the dative case, they couldn't suddenly argue that "sa" causes t-prefixation in a case that doesn't exist???). So it violates its own stated objectives.

They are preparing CO Mk 2. With a stroke of luck they would just decide to make Galway Irish the standard - word for word like the Irish in Mícheál Ó Siadhial's Learning Irish. It would be the logical approach, although almost certainly for that reason one that will be eschewed. It would be too logical. Too obvious. Can you imagine if they made a dictionary fully based on Cois Fhairrge Irish, with pronunciations and morphology solely reflecting that dialect? It would be a work of great scholarship, and I regret they will never do it.

So, Ailín approves of the CO for official documents, probably on the basis that there has to be some standard. But why not Galway Irish as the standard for Ailín's translations? Anyway, the debate is leading nowhere - I am afraid suggestions on this board that 3 standards be set up in different counties, with arcane arguments about whether Cavan should be taught Ulster or Connaught Irish - they are just debates on the Internet. They don't reflect what the government is likely to do at all.

So the Gaeltacht will fold. After that, I see no reason why the Irish nation should soldier on with the CO as the "final" version of Irish that is still taught to enthusiasts in 500 years' time. It was controversial in its day. Why not a real dialect as the "final" version of Irish? You never know, it is just possible that Galway might survive as a Gaeltacht if the children there weren't force-fed the CO!

Ailín said: "It is native Gaeltacht speakers and they alone who will change the language". But it is my impression that many Gaeltacht speakers have been convinced their Irish is wrong, and are trying to introduce more Standard elements. So even here, the learners have the whip hand.

Aongus said "Is maol gualainn gan bráthair". Thank you Aonghus, I've never heard that saying before. It is great.

(Message edited by corkirish on December 21, 2010)

quote:

I'm just wondering about the first part of the language evolution you've mentioned for native speakers. You say the declensions are disappearing, I am curious about what this involves. Is the language moving towards a single declension, i.e. the genitives and plurals of all nouns (ignoring the irregular ones) are starting to be formed the same way.

No, it means that people tend to use the same form in the nominative singular and in the genitive singular, and then the same form in the nominative plural and in the genitive plural. But the mutations don't change.
People often say "an fear", "hata an fhear"
"na fir", "toithi na bhfir" for example.
See An Teanga Bheo : Gaeilge Uladh and several books about Gaeltacht dialects. Of course it's more complicated than that but it's the general tendency in Gaeltacht Irish.

quote:

If so, were there more declensions in the past?

More cases, yes, in Old Irish : nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, in the singular, plural, dual.
However it isn't surprising if the declensions are disappearing (at least as changing the nouns, but again, the mutations remain) since they have almost disappeared in Late Manx as well, and they disappeared more than 1000 years ago in the Brythonic languages (but these have kept their initial mutations too, they have even more series than in Irish).

Darran, thank you for moving the debate back to the Irish language!

In the most vibrant Gaeltacht, Galway, and reflecting trends found in many other places, the declensions are being simplified.

* In the plural there is only one form for nominative, vocative, genitive and dative. Mícheál Ó Siadhial's Learning Irish lists only two distinctive vocative plurals (a fheara being one) and only seven distinctive genitive plurals. All other words have just one form in the plural. Note that these trends are not just limited to Galway. I found in Cúil Aodha, when I wanted to know the vocative plural of caora (sheep) - given in the Christian Brothers' Grammar as "a chaoracha" - the question was regarded as a very odd one - and I think they say "a chaoire" or "a chaoiribh". Similarly, "a lachana" for "O ducks" would be hard to find in real speech - although the Irish-language version of the Christian Brothers' Grammar does mention it. Most parts of the Gaeltacht are veering towards one form in the plural.

* In the singular, a separate genitive is usually used only where the ending is slenderised. Eg: fear, fir - this would be in full use. Some well known other ones, eg buachaill, buachalla, are still vibrant. But many words have only one form in the singular. The vocative is not distinctive. And the dative is not distinctive in most parts of the Gaeltacht, although often the nominative/dative form used is the historic dative, and not the historic nominative.

Darran, you can think along the lines of learning a nominative singular, a genitive singular and a nominative plural for nouns as you learn them - and forget the rest of the declension...

quote:

I mean, the English language doesn't evolve from the English classes in French or Spanish schools.
So Irish doesn't evolve from the speech of learners either.

Nor did learners create the Irish language. It was created by generation upon generation of native Gaeltacht speakers the vast majority of whom were monoglots. Most learners are native English speakers. English is a Germanic language, not even a Celtic one, and is only distantly related to Irish. These people wish to impose the sound system of their language upon Irish.

quote:

Btw it's easy to see the difference :
- in the speech of native speakers, the evolution looks like this : declensions are disappearing (but not initial mutations), some of the conjugations are becoming analytic in some dialects
- in the speech of learners, everything is becoming simplified : disparition of the initial mutations, declensions, all non-English sounds, and the syntax is becoming English, ie. everything that doesn't exist in English...

Exactly!

quote:

Even though the language evolves in the Gaeltacht, not everything disappears : gh isn't replaced by g, ch isn't replaced by c, the initial mutations don't disappear, etc.

And that is one of the biggest shibboleths distinguishing native from non-native speakers: initial mutations, séimhiú and urú, especially following a preposition. Since these do not exist in their mother tongue, English, they either do not use them because they don't know how to or simply don't want to or are just too bone idle to care, because all of the other learners are making the exact same errors. Other big differences are: velarised and palatalised laterals and dentals are not distinguished from one another in the speech of learners. In other words, the system of "broad" and "slender" consonants around which the entire Irish spelling system evolved is completely ignored by the vast majority of learners. Say any of that in public and expect to have the usual suspects spitting venom in your face. Expect to be labelled an "élitist" or a "bigot" or some other such nonsense.

quote:

But it is my impression that many Gaeltacht speakers have been convinced their Irish is wrong, and are trying to introduce more Standard elements.

Some of them. At least they have been convinced that their dialect isn't worth writing. I've read loads of stuff written by native speakers from Donegal, who'd write "ta mé ag dul" while the vast majority of Gaeltacht speakers say "ta mé ag gabhail" (or "ag goil"). Simply because "dul" is Standard, they say "ag gabhail" and spell "ag dul" (although it isn't the same word). Looks like most people think that it's better to write standard Irish, even though it's artificial, rather than their own dialect. And anyway I think most Gaeltacht speakers don't know how to spell their dialect (I mean, many words that can't be found in the dictionaries, or spelt in a different way, so people don't recognize them) so they try to write more or less in standard Irish (or in what they remember of standard Irish). And that's a pity because the genuine language is replaced by an artificial one. And as you know, the people who have created the standard Irish grammar haven't chosen the most common forms, but sometimes the most "simplified" ones, sometimes historical forms that don't exist anymore (or that are minoritary, as "dul"), etc.

Anyway, making the native speakers believe that their Irish is wrong or not worth writing, may persuade them not to speak Irish to their children. If too many people do that, Irish will soon die as a traditional language and will become like Manx or Cornish, ie. a language that is only spoken by learners or neo-native speakers but it won't ever be the same thing as before...

Carmanach: You haven't done it recently - not since I alluded to it with my "gibberish from God knows where" phrase -- but you frequently wrote here and elsewhere with a total disregard of conventional spelling.

That phrase did not refer to native speakers of Irish whom I respect and count among my friends and relatives. It referred to your practice of abandoning the Ó Dónaill or Dinneen spelling and deliberately coining your own giving the impression that this was some superior representation of Corca Dhuibhne Irish. It did not impress me.

I did not realise until now what an attitude you had to Irish and more especially to people like myself who have devoted their lives to learning the language for personal and family reasons.

I did not mean to attack you personally. The "gibberish" comment referred merely to your own flamboyant spelling. I think you know that well but choose to misrepresent me. When I write Irish I try "to get it right" which to me means an CO. Why should I be ashamed of that... Are you shifting the goal posts? Are you telling me I've learnt the "wrong" Irish?

Just like you I learn from native speakers. I listen and I read. I respect them just as I would wish to respect everyone here. I'll admit to being shocked at your attitude to what you called "the galltacht Irish language lobby." Shades of the LFM. Galltacht taxes support the Gaeltacht.

Our Government today announced a target of 250,000 daily users of Irish in twenty year's time -- most of whom will live in the "Galltacht". Will they support the Gaeltacht by attending courses there to improve their Irish? By setting up Irish-medium schools where young Gaeltacht teachers can get jobs? By buying books? By subsidising and benefitting from their radio, TV and theatre? By being even more generous with grants and loans? I hope so. Without Galltacht interest and support the Gaeltacht would revert to potaí gliomaigh, lánú fataí, cruachadh móna, agus an bád bán.

quote:

I've read loads of stuff written by native speakers from Donegal, who'd write "ta mé ag dul" while the vast majority of Gaeltacht speakers say "ta mé ag gabhail" (or "ag goil"). Simply because "dul" is Standard, they say "ag gabhail" and spell "ag dul" (although it isn't the same word). Looks like most people think that it's better to write standard Irish, even though it's artificial, rather than their own dialect.

Hence the purpose of my thread originally. If 95-99% of Donegal people write ag dul, but read ag gabháil, then who cares? It is not affecting their dialect, and that is good for a learner to know. Now if they are then saying ag dul while reading and ag gabháil while speaking, that would be interesting to know. And I am sure you know that ag dul just didn't fall off the boat in the 1950's. Ag dul has been prescribed for a while now, even if the practice was not universally implemented, or even very common. The same with tríd, retaining de and do, and some others that are part of the CO spelling. You are setting up a straw man.

Carmanach,

quote:

For me, bringing in new speakers starts and ends in the Gaeltacht

Well, they may get more chances then. Are you happy about the strategy because of this emphasis?

quote:

He said that up to one in five of all teacher training places will be reserved for students educated at Gaeltacht schools or gaelscoileanna, or who achieved high marks in the language at Leaving Certificate.
He said that Gaeltacht areas need to come up with strategies to promote the language within two years, or face losing their special status.
“The vulnerable position of the Irish language in the Gaeltacht is a cause for concern for the Government, with language experts predicting that the language may only survive as a household and community language in the Gaeltacht for another 15 to 20 years,” Carey said.
“Therefore it is necessary to take immediate action to ensure that the state works together with Gaeltacht communities to protect the Irish language in the Gaeltacht.”

http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/plan-to-triple-the-number-of-iri sh-speakers-within-20-years-008163-1

Some of you seem to assume that the 'extinction' of the Gaeltacht is an inevitability. Why? And why bother learning Irish if that's how you feel?

quote:

That phrase did not refer to native speakers of Irish whom I respect and count among my friends and relatives. It referred to your practice of abandoning the Ó Dónaill or Dinneen spelling and deliberately coining your own giving the impression that this was some superior representation of Corca Dhuibhne Irish.

Would you be so kind as to provide us with some examples, please? What are these spellings I supposedly "coined"? Seeing as you are, of course, an expert on Corca Dhuibhne Irish, you can set all of us gobdaws here aright. What sort of "gibberish" do I employ here and where exactly is "God know's where"? Please elaborate. I put it into Google Maps search engine a minute ago, but it keeps coming up zero.

quote:

It did not impress me.

Oh God, how I will ever get to sleep tonight . . .

quote:

I did not realise until now what an attitude you had to Irish and more especially to people like myself who have devoted their lives to learning the language for personal and family reasons.

Somebody give this guy a medal . . .

quote:

I did not mean to attack you personally.

Of course not . . .

quote:

The "gibberish" comment referred merely to your own flamboyant spelling.

"Flamboyant gibberish". No personal attacks on your part, apparently . . .

quote:

When I write Irish I try "to get it right" which to me means an CO. Why should I be ashamed of that... Are you shifting the goal posts? Are you telling me I've learnt the "wrong" Irish?

Er, hang on a sec. When exactly did I say that you couldn't write in CO? When, Taidhgín? Go on, enlighten me. I do remember you attacking me for not "respecting" the CO on this forum. If I choose to use a spelling that is closer to spoken Irish then that is my business, not yours. You obviously wouldn't know Corca Dhuibhne Irish if it trotted up to you and bit you on your left buttock which is clearly what is really bugging you here: you resent anyone who actually does. I actually sit down at night and put the hard work in. What exactly do you do on your derrière of a winter's evening, Taidhgín? You seem to do precious little on here apart from taking potshots at me and others.

quote:

Just like you I learn from native speakers

"I have no interest in the dialects, only communication" - Taidhgín

quote:

I respect them just as I would wish to respect everyone here

"Gibberish", "flamboyant", "God know's where", "no interest in the dialects", "academics have no interest in bringing up children with Irish", etc etc etc etc

quote:

Shades of the LFM.

. . . I've got my membership card around here somewhere . . .

quote:

Our Government today announced a target of 250,000 daily users of Irish in twenty year's time

Gee wiz! That's a helluva lot of flying pigs! Right so, we'll just slash blind persons' and carers' allowances even more to pay for it all. Maybe even close a cancer unit or two along the way? Will the IMF/ECB give us a loan for all these designer Gaeilgeoirí? Set up a plant in Blanchardstown to churn them out by the hour, perhaps? I mean, seeing how government policy towards the Irish language has been such a stirring success these past eighty years and more, how can it possibly go wrong? Just look at NAMA: will the 20 year strategy be equally as successful?

quote:

Will they support the Gaeltacht by attending courses there to improve their Irish? By setting up Irish-medium schools where young Gaeltacht teachers can get jobs? By buying books? By subsidising and benefitting from their radio, TV and theatre? By being even more generous with grants and loans?

Will they exist in twenty years time? Will we ever find out what really happened to Lord Lucan??

quote:

Without Galltacht interest and support the Gaeltacht would revert to potaí gliomaigh, lánú fataí, cruachadh móna, agus an bád bán.

The money that is spent on the Gaeltacht comes from the taxes paid by native Gaeltacht speakers themselves, native Anglophone learners of Irish and the vast mass of the Irish populace who speak no Irish at all. If the Gaeltacht relied solely on the Gaeilgeoir lobby, it would have disappeared a long time ago.

quote:

And that's a pity because the genuine language is replaced by an artificial one. And as you know, the people who have created the standard Irish grammar haven't chosen the most common forms, but sometimes the most "simplified" ones, sometimes historical forms that don't exist anymore (or that are minoritary, as "dul"), etc.

Both "ag dul" and "ag gabháil" occur in Ó Dónaill's dictionary. "Góil" is given as a variant. There is no obligation on any native speaker to write "ag dul" in all circumstances. That native speakers are ignorant of that is out of the hands of those who created the CO.

quote:

Anyway, making the native speakers believe that their Irish is wrong or not worth writing, may persuade them not to speak Irish to their children.

True. I remember speaking to a man from Ring who said that Ring Irish was wrong for using diphthongs instead of long vowels before historically short sonorants such as /n'/ and /l'/. He changed his mind when I explained that such development was totally natural according to the phonology of the language and did not violate any of the indignenous phonological rules. But of course all of this comes down yet again to the dangerous fiction that native speakers are incapable of speaking their own language properly.

quote:

"academics have no interest in bringing up children with Irish"

In the Irish university where I spent a year, all the Irish language teachers I had, did bring up (or were bringing up) their children with Irish. And I'll do as well, even though I have no permanent job in a university yet.

Lughaigh,

"And I'll do as well"

Le Gaeilge nó le Briotáinis?

Leis a' bheirt acu.

Conas? An bhfuil sé i gceist agat Briotáiniseoir a phósadh? Tá duine tagartha de gach teanga de dhíth chun go mbeadh rath ar an iarracht, seachas má tá tú i bpobal.

Tá tú tiománta! Fair plé, iontas orm nach ndíreofá ar an Bhriotáinis caithfidh mé a rá.

quote:

Conas? An bhfuil sé i gceist agat Briotáiniseoir a phósadh? Tá duine tagartha de gach teanga de dhíth chun go mbeadh rath ar an iarracht, seachas má tá tú i bpobal.

braitheann sé, amannai oibreann sé fiu muna bhfuil duine tagartha do gach teangaidh. Nil mo chailin liofa i mBriotainis (na i nGaeilg). Labhairfidh si Fraincis leofa, agus labhairfidh mise Briotainis ar na laetha corra agus Gaeilg ar na laetha réidhe no rud inteacht mar sin. Cha dtig liom rogha ar bith a dhéanamh eadar Gaeilg agus Briotainis. Tchifidh muid, ta'n t-am againn go foill.

Ta's agam fear a bhfuil 4 theangaidh dhuchais aige, Béarla, Breatnais, Fraincis is Briotainis. Is Breatnach a athair agus is Briotanach a mhathair. Ba choir domh ghabhail i dteangmhail leis no lena athair le ceist a chur air cad é mar a rinn siad.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on December 22, 2010)

Bheidh sin spéisiúil cinnte.

Gaeilge (uaimse), Gearmáinis (ó mo bhean) agus Béarla (ón dtimpeallacht) atá ag mo chúramsa. Ní raibh Béarla ar bith ag na buachaillí go dtí bliain i ndiaidh dúinn filleadh ar Éirinn.

An miste dhom fiafraí ar chloígh siad (sé/sí) le teanga amháin agus iad ag labhairt leatsa nó ar labhair siad Gearmáinis leis an mháthair agus Gaeilge leatsa? Ar ghlac an Béarla seilbh go hiomlán orthu in Éirinn?

Is é fáth mo cheiste gur labhraíomar beirt Gaeilge leis an gcéad duine s'againne (tríocha bliain ó shin) agus níor labhair sí ach Gaeilge go ndeachaigh sí ar scoil ach faoin am sin ba léir di go raibh teanga eile sa domhan mór amuigh agus bhí amhras uirthi go raibh eolas tábhachtach á cheilt againn uirthi go háirithe nuair ba léir di go rabhamarna in ann an dara teanga a labhairt agus nach raibh sise. Cá bhfios cén tionchar a bhí aige sin uirthi. Sheolamar chuig Montessori School Béarla í sula ndeachaigh sí chuig an bhunscoil Ghaeilge.

Bhí Gaeilge ag an dara duine chomh maith ach samhlaítear liom gur ag foghlaim óna deirfiúr a bhí sise agus gur fhoghlaim sí sin níos mó Béarla in aois a dó is a trí di ná mar a bhí riamh ag an gcéad duine. Mhair labhairt na Gaeilge sa teach go dtí go raibh an dara duine sna déaga.

Labhraítear Gaeilge ar uairibh go fóill -- go háirithe má tá cuairteoir le Gaeilge istigh -- ach is mó de Bhéarla a labhraíonn an dream óg. Ní nach ionadh. Tá siadsan i mbun tí dóibh féin faoi seo. Cá bhfios dúinne cad iad na sáiteáin a caitheadh leo i ngeall ar dhroch-Bhéarla i nganfhios dúinn.

Cad é an taithí atá agatsa, a Aonghuis?

Scéal sách casta atá ann.

Níor labhair na buachaillí Gaeilge ach go hannamh liomsa go dtí gur chaith muid saoire ar Inis Oírr agus gur chuala siad gasúir eile á labhairt. Ó tharla Gearmáinis líofa agamsa agus gurbh sin a labhraím le mo bhean, bhí fhios acu go raibh Gearmáinis agam.

Is dócha go bhfuil an lámh in uachtar fós ag Gearmáinis sa bhaile.

Ó thosaigh m'iníon ar réamhscoil (Bhéarla) agus ó d'aimsigh sí teilifís as Béarla, Béarla is mó a labhraínn sí. Tuigeann sí go maith go dtuigimid é. Súil agam go n-athródh cúrsaí arís ach a dtosóidh sí ar Ghaelscoil Meán Fómhair seo chugainn.

Bíonn siar agus aniar ann.

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghuis. Sin mar atá againne leis ach gan ach dhá theanga i gceist. Labhraíonn a máthair Gaeilge i gcónaí gcónaí, labhraímse Gaeilge go minic nuair a smaoiním orm féin ach ó fuair siad amach go bhfuil Béarla líofa agam b'shin a labhair siad liomsa. Ócáidí a labhraíonn siad Gaeilge bhreá tomhaiste liom ná nuair a bhíonn gar éigin uathu nó nuair is mian leo duine éigin eile a ghearradh as an gcomhrá. Bíonn sé áisiúil an dara teanga a bheith agat, tá's agat, mionteanga ach go háirithe.

Meas tú an bhfuil aon duine eile ar an bhfóram seo a rinne iarracht leanbh a thógáil le Gaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht? Cén chaoi ar éirigh libh.

B'fhéidir gurbh fiú snáth dá chuid féin sin?

quote:

No, it means that people tend to use the same form in the nominative singular and in the genitive singular, and then the same form in the nominative plural and in the genitive plural. But the mutations don't change.
People often say "an fear", "hata an fhear"
"na fir", "toithi na bhfir" for example.
See An Teanga Bheo : Gaeilge Uladh and several books about Gaeltacht dialects. Of course it's more complicated than that but it's the general tendency in Gaeltacht Irish.

Lughaidh, thanks for the information. I got An Teanga Bheo at Christmas, I see the information you mention here in section 4.4 "Úsáid an ghinidigh". I also must say that Ó Baoill is a very good writer.

quote:

More cases, yes, in Old Irish : nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, in the singular, plural, dual.

Incredible, that's fifteen different forms for a noun down to four forms (nom. sg. + pl., gen. sg. + pl.), which are themselves heading toward only two forms.

quote:

However it isn't surprising if the declensions are disappearing (at least as changing the nouns, but again, the mutations remain) since they have almost disappeared in Late Manx as well, and they disappeared more than 1000 years ago in the Brythonic languages (but these have kept their initial mutations too, they have even more series than in Irish).

Is there any linguistic reason one would expect declensions to disappear?

quote:

In the singular, a separate genitive is usually used only where the ending is slenderised.

Darran, you can think along the lines of learning a nominative singular, a genitive singular and a nominative plural for nouns as you learn them - and forget the rest of the declension...

David, thank you for these two very useful pieces of information. I do not know why, but I find noun cases to be very beautiful features of languages.

(Message edited by Darran on December 31, 2010)

>>>Incredible, that's fifteen different forms for a noun down to four forms (nom. sg. + pl., gen. sg. + pl.), which are themselves heading toward only two forms.

Darran, the accusative is long defunct, and the dual is either like the dative singular or the genitive plural and so is not a distinctive form.

You're really looking at 7 forms heading towards 2

>Is there any linguistic reason one would expect declensions to disappear?

Well, analogical developments muddied the waters long ago and made the system less logical.

>>David, thank you for these two very useful pieces of information. I do not know why, but I find noun cases to be very beautiful features of languages.

So do I! I learned Latin at school and then Russian at university, and I thought it was amazing the Russians managed all the cases on the fly!

1. nominative singular
(vocative singular either like the nominative or genitive, so not distinctive)
2. genitive singular
3. dative singular (not necessarily the same as the nominative)
(dual - usually like the dative singular, or sometimes the genitive plural)
4. nominative plural
5. vocative plural
(genitive plural - either like the nominative singular or nominative plural)
6. dative plural

Sorry: 6 forms

The dissolution of the case system is very regular and has happened to many languages. There are different reasons that can be cited from internal and external inputs. Everything from sound changes to influence from another language. Languages have balance. Vacuums in language are created and filled in a sort of ebb and flow. People wonder at the beauty and logic of a language like Italian, which would horrify and befuddle a time traveler from the time of Trajan.