mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Díol « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paploo
Member
Username: Paploo

Post Number: 76
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Tá leabhair nua á ndíol sa siopa seo.

Tá seodra nua á dhíol sa siopa seo.



why is there séimhiú in one and urú for the other? I'm guessing it has something to do with the gender of the subject because the subject is the only thing different in the sentences but I don't know what the rule is.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 423
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Masculine noun: á dhíol
Feminine noun: á díol
Plural noun: á ndíol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 953
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Rephrased:

á ndíol : to their selling
á dhíol : to its (masc.) selling

They must agree with the subjects of the sentences. Á = do + a.

Also:
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/35264.html?1224684136

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paploo
Member
Username: Paploo

Post Number: 77
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 10:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the help

(Message edited by paploo on December 19, 2010)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 432
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Á = do + a.



Er, no. Á= ag+a.

Normally you have "ag díol" ("at selling"). Ag díol na dtithe (selling the houses, "at selling of the houses").

But with the pronoun object of the verbal noun, ag+a becomes á. Note this construction ca also be analogous to passive in use.

Táim á dhíol (I am selling it, a masculine pronoun object)
Tá sé á dhíol agam (it is being sold by me)

Táim á díol (I am selling it, a feminine pronoun object)
Tá sí á díol agam (it is being sold by me)

Táim á ndíol (I am selling them, a plural pronoun object)
Táid siad á ndíol agam (they are being sold by me)

Other pronoun objects:

Tá sé am dhíol - he is selling me
Tá sé ad dhíol - he is selling thee
Tá sé ár ndíol - he is selling us
Tá sé úr ndíol - he is selling you

These all derive from ag+the pronoun concerned.

The forms above are the Cork forms.

Let's look at Cois Fhairrge (Galway), from Ó Siadhial's Learning Irish:

go mo dhíol - selling me
go do dhíol - selling thee
ghá dhíol - selling him
ghá díol - selling her
ghá ndíol - selling us
ghá ndíol - selling you
ghá ndíol - selling them

Note Ó Siadhial's spelling are "do mo", "do do", "dhá", "dhá", "dhá", "dho'ur" and dhá", but the pronuunciations are as I have given them - he seems to refuse to believe the evidence of his own eyes that the pronoun object derives from "ag".

The pronunciations "go mo" and "go do" are derived etymologically from "ag". Ghá them emerges by lenition of the "g".

[Note: I don't know what the Donegal forms are. But Lars Braesicke gives them as "(ag) mo dhíol, (ag) do dhíol, á dhíol, á díol, (ag) ár ndíol, (ag) bhur ndíol, á ndíol" - I am a bit confused by these, as I thought "bhur" was "mur" in Donegal - I am seeking confirmation on the Donegal forms.]

I see in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne the Kerry forms are as for Cork, but the third person á dhíol can also be dhá dhíol and dá dhíol - these also derive from "ag". Ag a-->gá-->ghá (same pronunciation as dhá)-->dá (by delenition from dhá/ghá). As the gh could come from a g or a d, the ghá is non-etymologically delenited to dá sometimes. This was railed against in the 19th century by the great linguist John Donovan in his 1845 grammar, John Donovan being the "mothership" in terms of Irish grammar. Ulick Bourcke in 1856 also raised against dá, saying it was newfangled thing in his day, and an incorrect etymology.

The CO forms are "do mo dhíol, do do dhíol, á dhíol, á díol, dár ndíol, do bhur ndíol, á ndíol" - these forms don't seem to be right anywhere (I am told "the CO was devised by experts with a detailed knowledge of the most common dialectal forms, which they adopted"???), although they do have the advantage of disobliging speakers of all dialects. More importantly, the devisers of the CO seemed to think (incorrectly) that there was etymologically a "do" there...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3757
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

As far as I know people say "(a) mo dhiol, (a) do dhiol, á dhiol, á diol, ár ndiol, (a) mur ndiol, á ndiol".
You pronounce the a between brackets according to the precedent word, as usual, if it ends with a vowel you drop the a.

You don't pronounce the g of "ag" (before verbal nouns etc) before consonants.
Of course when "ag" is a preposition (ag an doras etc) you pronounce the g.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 12:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh,

I know in Mayo they preserve the original form with "ag", although I don't have full details.

I don't have the Waterford forms either.

I am trying to find a Gaeltacht that says: /də mə ji:l/. I don't think there is any, or has ever been any, but more information is required...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

The_lilywhites
Member
Username: The_lilywhites

Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

''''I am trying to find a Gaeltacht that says: /də mə ji:l/. I don't think there is any, or has ever been any, but more information is required..'''''

Maybe Clare, asusual?

By the way it would be good to have a quote option, this forum is so outdated. Its annoying to get the code all the time.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 434
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The Gaeltacht in Co. Clare was long gone by the 1940s. According to Nils Holmer, the forms in Clare were:

ag mo /əm, mə/
ag do /əd, ət/
á /ɑ:, ɣɑ:, dɑ:, e:, ə/
ag ár /ɑ:r/
ag úr /u:r/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Grma
Member
Username: Grma

Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Wasn't there a great deal of controversy about the removal of Gaeltacht status from Clare - i.e., that certain places were still residually bilingual (I suppose what would be called 'category c' areas today) and that the decision was seen as politically motivated?

(And yes, obviously ALL decisions about the delimitation - and extension - of the Gaeltacht are necessarily political, but I if I remember correctly the Clare decision was heavily criticised at the time. I may be wrong.)



©Daltaí na Gaeilge