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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Eist do bhéal « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 418
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 04:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I understood this meant "hold your tongue", but I think from this example, it could be an expression of surprise ("get away!" in English). Is this right?

quote:

Do tharla, lá dá raibh sé thall i gCathair na Beirbe, gur ghluais ráfla ó bhéal go béal i measc na ndaoine.

“Ó,” a déarfadh duine le duine, “ar airís an scéal nua?”

“Níor airíos airiú! Cad é an scéal nua é?” a déarfaí á fhreagra.

“Ardrí Éireann atá marbh!”

“Eist do bhéal!”



There is no reason why the Vikings of Bergen would tell each other to "hold their tongues" on this subject. so is it Get away!?

Also I notice the spelling is eist not éist in Niamh, and IWM confirms that éist has byform eist - am I right in assuming this short-e pronunciation only occurs in this phrase?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10899
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 07:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Unless they wanted to be discreet in the presence of the Irishman?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 420
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well Caoilte (thanks for indicating the significance of this name earlier - the courier or messenger has the nickname Caoilte) speaks fluent Norse and is dressed as a Norse trader to find out what military preparations are afoot in Norway... So they probably think he is a Viking too...

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 421
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Cathair na Beirbe is another interesting thing - in the glossary at the back of the 1907 edition it says this means "Copenhagen". Maybe PUL's editor thought it did. But this word means Bergen in Norway, and should be an Bheirbhe, or Cathair na Beirbhe - I am thinking PUL got it out of some old manuscript (he appears to get some of the details for his Niamh from Seathrún Céitinn's Foras Feasa ar Éirinn), where there was no lenition on the second b - but clearly he was not really familiar with this placename, which is Bergin in fact.. He also refers to Iceland as Inis Tuile - a reference to the mythological island of Thule reputed to exist in the far north of Europe that later came to be associated with Iceland (although some believe Greenland or Norway were being referred to in the legends of Thule).

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 494
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 06:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Also I notice the spelling is eist not éist in Niamh, and IWM confirms that éist has byform eist - am I right in assuming this short-e pronunciation only occurs in this phrase?


It's possible he intended it to be pronounced /əiʃt'/ as it is in Rinn Ua gCuanach. I've seen "éirigh" spelt "eirigh" presumably as an attempt to indicate the southern pronunciation of the first syllable.
quote:

Inis Tuile


It's "Innis Tìle" in Scottish Gaelic.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 427
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 06:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

eirigh is indeed /əirʹigʹ/, but eist is /eʃtʹ/, as IWM specifically says so.

The spelling ei does not specifically indicate /əi/ - you would have to spell it eidhrigh to make the diphthong clear...

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 495
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 07:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Indeed it doesn't. I was simply pointing out that it does seem to have occasionally been used to indicate this pronunciation.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 430
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 07:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thank you James, I see your point. I am specifically referring to paragraph 284, page 99, of IWM - I believe you have the book.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 831
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I understood this meant "hold your tongue", but I think from this example, it could be an expression of surprise ("get away!" in English). Is this right?



Yes. "Get away!", "No way!", "You're joking!"

quote:

Also I notice the spelling is eist not éist in Niamh, and IWM confirms that éist has byform eist - am I right in assuming this short-e pronunciation only occurs in this phrase?



Yes. "Dhera, eist!"; "Ah, Shut up, listen, for God's sake!" but in CD at least the verbal stem is normally éistigh (with long e) but you would say "Eist" (short e) but "Ná heisteofá!"; "Would you ever shut up!", "Eist liom!" all with short e.



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