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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 408 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:05 am: | |
We discussed previously that a genitive plural of bó as bó is not always used - ba can be used. PUL in Niamh has this: quote:Ina ghrásaeir a bhíodh sé uaireanta eile agus stoc beag ba seasca aige á dhíol le búistéiríbh Lochlannacha i gcathair Chorcaí. As PUL normally observes traditional genitive plurals, could anything else be going on? Eg that the gpl is less likely to used where an adjective intervenes, thus breaking the link with the antecedent??? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 821 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 09:31 am: | |
seomraí na mba, mhuis! |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10892 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 10:21 am: | |
Ní thuigim? an ginideach atá i gceist pé scéal é le "stoc beag ba"? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 822 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 10:30 am: | |
quote:an ginideach atá i gceist pé scéal é le "stoc beag ba"? Is ea. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10893 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 10:39 am: | |
Más ea, an é an ginideach iolra malartach atá ann, mar a shíl David? Nó an bhfuil rud éigin eile ag tarlú? |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 409 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:25 am: | |
Aonghus, ba "cheart" 'bó' a bheith ann mar ghinideach iolra, in inead "ba" --más féidir linn glacadh smaoineamh "cirt"-- ach is minic a duairt Ailín go ndeintear úsáid de "ba" mar gh. iol. i gCD. Do chuir an abairt atá thuas ionadh orm, toisc idirdhealú "cruinn" na dtuiseal á dhéanamh de ghnáth ag an Athair Peadair. Cad chuige gan "stoc beag bó seasc" do scríobh dó? Is dóigh liom go mbeadh "bó" ann mara mbeadh an aidiacht a theacht isteach idir na haimnfhocalaibh, nó, b'fhéidir, go n-úsáideach sé idir "ba" agus "bó" , rud a mhineodh na foirmeacha atá le fáil an lá inniubh i gCD??? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 824 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:32 am: | |
Níl aon chiall dar liom ná go mbeadh an ainm sa ghinideach iolra san abairt a luaigh David ach cad é gnáthghinideach iolra "bó" i nGaelainn Mhúscraí Thiar - bo nó ba? "Ba" an ginideach iolra i gCorca Dhuibhne agus cím "rian bualthaí na mba" agus "boladh na mba" agus "Dála na mba" aige Donnchadh Shéamuis Ó Drisceoil ó Chléire. Tá "i gcóir na mbó" ag Amhlaoibh Ó Luínse agus "a' crú na mbó", leis, aige. Tharlódh leis go mbeadh an dá leagan sa chaint, do réir an duine a bheadh ag caint. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10894 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:38 am: | |
Maith go leor; An bhfuil aon sampla malartach agat David, nó an amhlaidh gur "ba" atá ag PUL i gcónaí don ghinideach iolra? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 825 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:42 am: | |
quote:Cad chuige gan "stoc beag bó seasc" do scríobh dó? Ab ea in aon chor gur ag cuimhneamh ar dhéanamh éintig do shórt "stoc beag de bha seasca", rud a déarfaí, agus, "stoc beag 'e bha seasca", leis, a bhí PUL? Ar a shon san is uile, is é is dealrataí dar liomsa gur mar ghinideach iolra a shmaoinigh PUL ar "ba" san abairt sin, agus mar athá ráite cheana agam, tharlódh go mbeadh an dá leagan sa chaint, á mhalartú ar a chéile - bó agus ba. Déarfainn gur "bó" amháin a déarfaí i seanaráite leithéid "Cogadh na mBó Maol" a meastar a bheith siocaithe cailcithe. |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 411 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:44 am: | |
Bainte ó "Mo Sgéal Féin": Féar seacht mbó, agus gan ann ach droch thalamh. Chómh luath agus bhí ionam gabháil amach ag aedhreacht na mbó. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10895 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:46 am: | |
quote:Ab ea in aon chor gur ag cuimhneamh ar dhéanamh éintig do shórt "stoc beag de bha seasca", rud a déarfaí, agus, "stoc beag 'e bha seasca", leis, a bhí PUL? Sin a rith liomsa, ach gan "de" ní bheadh an tabharthach ceart. Maidir le "Féar seacht mbó", measaim gur leagan sioctha atá ansin freisin. |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:55 am: | |
quote:Ab ea in aon chor gur ag cuimhneamh ar dhéanamh éintig do shórt "stoc beag de bha seasca", rud a déarfaí, agus, "stoc beag 'e bha seasca", leis, a bhí PUL? Ar a shon san is uile, is é is dealrataí dar liomsa gur mar ghinideach iolra a shmaoinigh PUL ar "ba" san abairt sin, agus mar athá ráite cheana agam, tharlódh go mbeadh an dá leagan sa chaint, á mhalartú ar a chéile - bó agus ba. Déarfainn gur "bó" amháin a déarfaí i seanaráite leithéid "Cogadh na mBó Maol" a meastar a bheith siocaithe cailcithe. Is ea, anois, b'fhéidir go bhfuil "dhe" ann, ach do bheinnse ag brath air go mbeadh "stoc beag de BHUAIBH seasca" ann - mar ní mór ná go raibh tuiseal tabharthach i gcónaí ag an Athair Peadair nuair a lean ainmfhocal díreach i ndiaidh réamhfhocail (do bheadh idir "ins na scoileannaibh" agus "ins na scoileanna" aige, ach ní raibh ach "i scoileannaibh" aige, b'fhéidir toisc comhthéacs tabharthach a bheith níos soiléire gan an alt a theacht isteach sa lár). Ach ba chóir dúinn a choimeád inár n-aigne gur chuir na héagarthóirí a lámh isteach sa rud agus nárbh fhéidir linn deimhne a dhéanamh de conas a scríobh an tAthair Peadair é ar dtúis gan a lámhscríbhinníbh a dh'iniúchadh... GRMA as bhur bhfreagraíbh... |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 413 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:07 pm: | |
Arbh fhéidir liom ceist eile a chur leis an gceann so? quote:Ina cheannaí Lochlannach a bhíodh sé uaireanta, istigh i gcathair Bhaile Átha Cliath, ag díol éadaí olna a deintí in Éirinn an uair sin ní b’fhearr ná mar a deintí iad in aon áit lasmuigh d’Éirinn. Ta "olla" sa ChO mar ghinideach "olann" ach "olna" anso. Is minic a fuaimnítí "ln" mar "ll", agus mar sin, níl a fhios agam an bhfuil difríocht sa bhfuaimniú idir "olla" agus an "olna" anso, nó ná fuil? /olə/ nó /olnə/ - cad a cheapann sibh? Is doíchí liom go bhfuil /olə/ anso, agus go bhfuil an "n" coimeádta do chionn an leitrithe traidisiúnta? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10896 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:33 pm: | |
Nach aidiacht atá i gceist anseo? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 826 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:48 pm: | |
quote:Nach aidiacht atá i gceist anseo? Ní hea ach ginideach uatha. Leagan malartach gan amhras. Tá "olainne" cloiste i nDún Chaoin aige comhghleacaí liom. "olla" an gnáthghindeach uatha i gCorca Dhuibhne. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10897 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:53 pm: | |
Sílim fós gur "woollen clothes" atá i gceist. (Olainne a bheadh agamsa ach gan mé cinnte conas é a litriú. I gCom Dhinéoil a d'fhoghlaim m'athair mór Gaeilge, rud a d'fhág lorg ar a shliocht...) |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 827 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:54 pm: | |
quote:do bheinnse ag brath air go mbeadh "stoc beag de BHUAIBH seasca" ann I gcuntais mo shaoil, cana thaobh ná shmaoiníos-sa air sin?!! |
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Corkirish
Member Username: Corkirish
Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2010
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:13 pm: | |
Aonghus - it is "woollen clothes", with the gen. sing. used as an adjective. Just like caipín airgid, silver cap, which occurs in Séadna - airgid is gs. as adjectival usage. Adhmaid is the same - gs. as adjectival usage. But not morphologically adjectives. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10898 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:33 pm: | |
Chím. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 828 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:04 am: | |
Is dócha go bhfuil an Ghaelainn agus an Béarla trína chéile agat, a Aonghuis: woollen clothes = woollen (aidiacht) éadaí olla/olainne = ginideach uatha ag feidhmiú mar a bheadh aidiacht ann (ach nách aidiacht ó cheart é) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10909 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:08 am: | |
Ó tharla nach bhfuil seilbh comhfhiosach agam ar an ngramadach (i dteanga ar bith) tharlódh go bhfuil d'fháthmheas cruinn. Tá éadaí olna de dhíth go géar inniubh, pé scéal é. |
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