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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Eagla with ag, not ar « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 374
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

From Niamh: Tá an iomad eagla aici rómham-sa.

But all other examples I have seen are with "ar" and not "ag", so that I would have expected "uirthi".

Is this not a little strange?

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 732
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 01:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

No. The reason for this is that the default argument 'the cause of fear' gets expressed which changes the subcategorisation of the predicate. The same thing can be observed in Connemara Irish for the word 'faitíos':

Tá faitíos orm, but tá faitíos agam roimh an mada.

If I remember correctly this phenomenon is explained somewhere in Learning Irish.

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 376
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thank you, very interesting. Очень интересно, Пётр.
Спасибо за объяснение! Я больше всего интересуюсь этими маленькими вещьями.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 733
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 02:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Alternatively, you may say that the choice of the preposition affects the sense of the predicate, i.e. is not purely syntactic, and develop a compositional semantic theory of prepositions as operators on predicates (one can point to the fact that 'ag' typically expresses an agentive argument whereas 'ar' - an undergoer, etc.).

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 734
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Не за что! Мне самому нравится копаться в деталях, а потом искать объяснение увиденному. Так что, спасибо за очередную интересную тему!

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 797
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 05:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Is this not a little strange?



Well, I've seen and heard both but eagla ar roim seems to be much more common. I give some examples below, AC = Aistí ó Chléire, BMG = Breandán Mac Gearailt, Márthain, Corca Dhuibhne, GCD = Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, Ó Sé.

Ní gá d’éinne a thuilleadh eagla do bheith air roimhis an ngandal; (AC:90)
má tá eagla ar bhaill don nGarda Síochána roimh iliomad cladhaire ba cheart san a chur ina cheart ar an dtoirt; (BMG: 7/10/2007)
ansan, fág is gub é t’athair críonna é, bheadh an t-eagla céanna agatsa roimis; (GCD:458)
mná móra láidre ná raibh eagla orthu roimhis an saol (AC:23)

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 798
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Mac Cionnaith gives both tá faitcheas orm roimhe and tá faitcheas agam roimhe and quotes Munster and Connachta for both but doesn't give any difference in meaning between the two.



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