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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Parsing of "cá bhfios" « Previous Next »

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 363
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 09:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I always accepted that "cá bhfios dó" was simply eclipsis caused by cá, although unusual as cá should be eclipsing a verb not a noun and as the verb is the copula here the whole thing could simply be an exception.

But PUL in Niamh has " Cá bh’fhios dó", This implies the "bh" is not derived from eclipsis of the f at all, but is derived from a lenited form of the conditional copula, would you would have expected to be cá b'fhios dó.

how do people here parse that phrase?

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Without any shred of evidence or proof I suspect "cá" in "Cá bhfios dom" is equivalent to the negative "cha" in the northern and Scottish dialects.

I recognise that in the question "cá bhfios duitse?" it is probably of different origin.

I look forward to more scholarly responses.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 933
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 03:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It looks like it is equivalent to cia/cá. In the DIL, under cía Ie, it says:

(e) With follg. noun (often as antecedent of rel. clause). ... gá fhios nach . . . (ḟ = bf?) ...

But under C it says the form later eclipsed. Perhaps the forms were conflated.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 380
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

But Seán, where is the verb then, if cá is directly eclipsing a noun? My theory is that there is a copula there and that bh is the lenited conditional copula.The explanation in DIL is "antecedent or relative clause", but where is the relative clause?

Another alternative could be that fios is the old verbal noun fios, and not an ordinary noun?

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 935
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 06:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am not sure. The DIL seems to indicate that it is a VN, at least originally ("used as vn. of ro-finnadar, ro-fitir"). It gives many examples of fios do. Most of them were with go, so go bhfios domh with my knowledge; so far as I know. I don't know if this helps, though.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 801
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I can't explain the eclipsis in cá bhfios as one would expect the initial f to be unmarked. The Christian Brothers only say that the eclipsis is an exception in cá bhfios (13.76). Perhaps a remnant of some defunct rule?

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 454
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 12:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

or a simple glide /w/ for ease of pronounciation?
cá fhios /ka: is/ -> /ka wis/ -> cá bhfios

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 419
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lars, you may be right. I would put an "a" in there in that case: cá a fhios? but of course the "a" does not affect the pronunciation... Whoever edited PUL's Niamh thought there was a lenited "ba" in there, but Seán's evidence from DIL indicates that is a folk etymology.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 829
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

or a simple glide /w/ for ease of pronounciation?
cá fhios /ka: is/ -> /ka wis/ -> cá bhfios



The consonant is /v'/ not /w/.

One would expect "cá fios" and not "cá fhios". Cá + lenition is only used with abstract nouns denoting degree; cá mhinice?, cá fhad?, etc.

Cá bhfios is pronounced /kous/ in Corca Dhuibhne.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 439
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Bhuel, b'fhéidir go raibh ciall éigin ag an Athair Peadair lena "cá bh'fhios"...



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