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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Leinster Dialect and introduction « Previous Next »

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I'm not used to posting on messageboards but I have been a silent observer of Daltaí for some time now and couldn't resist joining in the discussions.

I read Irish well and can write it but with many schoolboy grammatical errors but as time goes on hopefully I will build up enough confidence to reply as Gaeilge more often.

I learnt Connacht Irish (CO) in my teens but switched to Donegal Irish in adulthood so probably use a quite mixed dialect myself, with the written form being more CO and the spoken form being Gaeilge Thír Conaill. Would be interested to hear if anyone else has shifted dialects or uses a mixed one - it can be a challenging experience.

I have a great love and interest in all aspects of the language but one particular post on the Daltaí boards encouraged me to begin writing:

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/14080.html

It's a while back, admittedly (I found it via a Google search on Leinster dialect), but I was wondering did the person involved actually go ahead and successfully try to speak a reconstructed Leinster dialect?

I'd also like to discuss Irish dialects a bit more - I notice GGN's excellent blog on Rathlin Gaelic and I sense that more and more attention is being paid to dialects now than ever.

I'd also be interested to learn about 'new dialects' of Irish such as those found in the Shaw's Road area of Belfast. Maguire (1990) has a little bit on the new forms that they use - I remember 'tabharann' off the top of my head - and phonologically learner's Irish in the north tends to have very English phonology, so I would like to learn more about it.

Anyway, sin é agus sin sin, agus tá áthas ormsa bualadh libhse!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10870
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Fáilte isteach, ach níl freagraí do chuid ceisteanna agam.

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 08:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go raibh maith agatsa, a hAonghuis. Tuigim go bhfuil siad ceisteanna neamhghácha.

I found it very interesting that Leinster Irish was spoken in Gleann na Smól as a 'refuge' "up until the early twentieth century" - apparently residually in the same way as it was in, e.g., Glangevlin, Muintir Lonaigh, Airghialla up until the 1950s.

It reminds me of the maps that Garret FitzGerald produced in the proceedings of the RIA on the retreat of Irish by age cohort. Unfortunately these amazing documents haven't been scanned by anyone (yet, hint hint) so they're not available online which is a massive shame.

I'm also interested in dialect borders, so if anyone has any information about them it would be greatly appreciated - GGN at Rathlin Gaelic has a map of the distribution of 'fuil/bheil' which shows that the latter extended as far south as coastal Meath, for example, so some dialect features were far more widespread than we learners otherwise imagine.

As far as I understand it, the boundaries between Ulster Irish were at what is now north Louth in the southeast, Glangevlin in the southwest, and I suppose we would be able to draw a line between those two points to find the outer limit of identifiably 'Ulster' variants. In the southwest, Kilkenny is mentioned as the eastern march of Munster Irish, whereas Clare was the meeting point of Munster and Connacht Irish.

Does anyone have any idea what Longford Irish, where we could reasonably imagine the border between Connacht and Leinster Irish sat, was like? And if the dialect boundaries of Irish followed roughly the same boundaries as the old cúige boundaries, do we know if there was a separate Meath dialect? (Guy Beiner's book 'The Year of the French' dealing with the 1798 Rising in folklore of the north Connacht area has a bit about the Irish language in this area.)

It's all very fascinating, I find.

PS: I forgot to mention in my introductory post that I also speak Norwegian and by extension Swedish and Danish so if anyone needs any help with basic translations or queries relating to these languages I'm more than happy to help.

(Message edited by GRMA on December 14, 2010)

(Message edited by GRMA on December 14, 2010)

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 09:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá fáilte romhat, Grma.

Garret Fitzgerald's study is excellent although sad. He reveals that where there were monoglots Irish was spoken. Once everyone was bilingual only English was spoken and Irish forgotten in a generation.

He also reveals the other phenomenon "Revival Irish" and the increasing evidence from the census that people wanted to be regarded as "knowing Irish".

In his lectures in UCD he derived some amusement from the observation that in some areas known to speak Irish people put down "English only" and in areas not two miles from O'Connell Street Dublin clusters of people claimed to know Irish.

The Gaeltacht denial can be put down to shame & snobbery. (cf Saoirse Gan Só / The Great Silence by Seán de Fréine.) The clusters claiming to know Irish may have come from Coláiste Mhuire, Scoil Chaitríona, Scoil Éanna, Scoil Bhríde or particularly active branches of Conradh na Gaeilge. [Incidentally I don't like the joke "Cónra na Gaeilge". It is clever but painfully scathing.]

I would love to hear the speech forms and sounds of the old extinct dialects reconstructed and made available online or on CD Rom to enthusiasts like myself. Hearing phrases like "Táim leamh-thursach" would remind us of the breadth and variety of expressions once current in the language and the innate genius of the communities long ago who shaped and reshaped it in their speech on occasions of joy, sadness, and everyday activities.

It could be done by those who can read the IPA etc in which they are described. I am thinking of Stockman's The Irish of Achill for example or Seanchas Ghleann Gaibhleann.

There's an excellent video done of the Fál Mór dialect in Erris. I saw a reference to it here some time ago and I am sure it is still online.

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 09:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dia dhuit, a Thaidhghín.

I completely agree with you re: Fitzgerald's study. It was a great read and a sad overview of the decline of the language, and it is a great shame it is not, as far as I know, more widely used. De Fréine's study likewise - de Fréine is out of print at the moment but copies are available online at massively inflated prices, so snap any cheap ones up as and when you can.

The Doegen archives are available online and give hissy recordings of the last native speakers of most of the 'residual' dialects in e.g., Airghialla and Glangevlin. You can find them online here: http://dho.ie/doegen/home

I completely agree also that the loss of dialects has lost a lot of idiomatic variation in Irish - and by no means is Irish alone in this. In Norwegian, for example, calquing of English turns-of-phrase is a massive influence that is only getting stronger (as is code-switching) whereas some of the older native ways of speaking are confined to the oldest generation.

I too would love to see IPA transcriptions of some of the dialects - can anyone help? (O'Rahilly's Irish Dialects Past and Present is on the way to me in the post so don't anyone spoilt it for me.)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3737
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I too would love to see IPA transcriptions of some of the dialects - can anyone help? (O'Rahilly's Irish Dialects Past and Present is on the way to me in the post so don't anyone spoilt it for me.)



As far as I remember there isn't much written in phonetics in O'Rahilly's book.
If you want to see IPA transcriptions, try to have a look at the LASID (Linguistic Atlas and Survey of the Irish Dialects). There are IPA transcriptions of texts in all the books that deal with a specific dialect.
I may scan you some samples if you like (I try to get a copy of every book about the Irish dialects! I've got most of them now).

See :
http://www.uni-due.de/DI/Dialects_Literature.htm

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

That would be great, Lughaidh.

I was going to get Wagner's book for Christmas via Amazon, but it weighed in at 7kg all in and I couldn't bear to force that on the postman, so I'll get it another time. I would very much appreciate any scans, however. Thanks.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 313
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://middleclassdub.blogspot.com/

Léigh na poist níos sine.

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/

Neart neart neart eolas ar an suíomh seo.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 314
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Seo fear a bhfuil saineolas aige ar chanúintí Laighin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Williams

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go raibh céad míle maith agatsa, a GhGN, they're great links - I had seen the Ó Duibhin one but the other is completely new to me. Keep them coming!

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 315
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

An raibh a fhios agat go bhfuil neart eolas ag Duibhín faoi Longfort?

Tá leabhar ann - Gaelic Dialects of Leinster, agus Mion-chaint na Mí - bheadh siad úsáideach.

Tá 'Teach Yourself Leinster Irish' de dhíth ach ní dóigh liom go bhfeicfidh muid a leithead go luath!

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I didn't know there was anything about the Longford dialect in Duibhin, no. I'll take a closer look.

I've never heard of Gaelic Dialects of Leinster - is it an old publication?

Yes, I know of Nicholas Williams - I have been in contact with him about possible influences from Irish on Cornish. (The answer is that there weren't any.)

(Message edited by grma on December 14, 2010)

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 316
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Duibhín should have the exact ref.

Piatt (1933) - not the best book but it was inspired by O'Rahilly - i.e as a response.

But if you have the Irish to read it - you should read the parts of Stair na Gaeilge which deal with Leinster Irish - we are never going to know much more than that.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 317
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://kilkennyirish.blogspot.com/

Roinnt eolas eile.

Tá mé ag iarraidh 'bunfrasaí Chill Chainnigh' a chuir le chéile ach ní bhfuair mé an deis riamh.

Fáilte roimh chabhair!!!!!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10882
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá ceart agus blas ag an gConnachtach,
Tá blas gan cheart ag an Muimhneach,
Tá ceart gan blas ag an Ultach,
Agus níl ceart ná blas ag an Laighneach.

(Ní inniu ná inne a thosaigh iomrascáil na gcanúintí, agus is cosúil go rabhamar i Laighean i gcónaí thíos leis!)

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1047
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 01:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ar ndóigh! Nach mbeadh fata nite, scuite, bruite, agus ite ag an gConnachtach a fhad is a bheadh an Muimhneach ag rá prááátaííí.

Hi! Hí!

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 377
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 01:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Taidhgín, did you make that up - if so it was great - or is that an established sentence?

That reminds me of the Chinese phrase 天不怕,地不怕,只怕广东人说普通话 - I fear neither heaven nor earth, but rather the Cantonese speaking Mandarin...

(Message edited by corkirish on December 14, 2010)

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 02:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the links, GGN. It seems there is a fair amount of work available on supposedly 'lost' Irish dialects, although not as much as we'd (obviously) like.

I noticed in the original Leinster dialect post there was a mention of Irish being spoken in Stoneybatter - does anyone have any information on the Irish spoken in Dublin? I'm aware significant sections of the working classes in all the major cities of Ireland (and Britain) were Irish-speaking, although generally I would have imagined that after 1800 these would have been migrants from the countryside.

Does anyone have any information to the contrary?

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 02:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Sadly, Corkirish, I cannot lay any claim to it. There are many such tongue-twisters.

D'ibh damh dubh ubh amh.
Ná bac le mac an bhacaigh is ní bhacfaidh mac an bhacaigh leat.
Dá laghad é is fiú é arsa an dreoilín ag déanamh a mhún le haill.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 318
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 02:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

GRMA,

I know that there were natives speakers in the Dublin mountains in the 1834 - but I have no information.

Much info on Dublin Irish can probably be gleamed from isoglosses in Stair na Gaeilge.

Middle class dub has wordlists.

We know quite a bit about Leinster dialects - we even have recordings (Kilkenny) and much written info about Meath / South Louth.

The is of course a reason why not many people are 'into' this subject ...

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Grma
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Username: Grma

Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I get the sense from your last line GGN that there's something in the air that I *should* know, but sadly I don't. Can you explain?

I know about the Irish-speaking 'refuge' in Gleann na Smól which you refer to - the sources I have consulted state that it lasted until the early twentieth century.

That Irish was spoken in the Dublin Mountains says quite a lot about the 'ink blot' shaped recession of Irish after 1800.

Like I said in another post, Fitzgerald's maps are the most graphic representation of this but they're not online, and even then they're at barony level which tends to wipe out any persistence of Irish at micro-local level as in Gleann na Smól.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 319
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 03:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

GRMA,

You simply cannot rely on any map of the decline of Irish.

They almost all ignore pockets.

The Irish of Leinster was not the Irish people wanted it to be.



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