Rinne mé dearmad/dhein mé dearmad etc.

Some of my friends pronounce it more or less as its written 'dar-mad'. Others 'yar-mad' and still more 'dar-oo'.Are they all just variants,or is one more correct?

dearúd - Munster and Isle of Man
dearmad - everywhere else

There is a synonym "dearúd" which may account for the third variant.

In Cork Irish normally dearúd, but gan dearmad (dʹarəməd) in the meaning "without fail"

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There is a synonym "dearúd" which may account for the third variant.

???

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but gan dearmad (dʹarəməd) in the meaning "without fail"

Is that mentioned somewhere in print?

Yes, Ailín, it is in the vocabulary at the back of Myles Dillon and Donnchadh Ó Cróinín's Teach Yourself Irish. See p223. Gan dearmad is specifically mentioned as having an m (IPA is given) and then the next entry is for dearúd with IPA for "act of forgetting".

I see, but how accurate is that book?

Well, Ailín, it is the only textbook of Cork Irish around. Donncha Ó Cróinín was the brother of Seán Ó Cróinín - and these both edited Seanchas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse - they were from Muskerry and in fact the cousins of the lady who did the audio files for Mo Sgéal Féin for me. Myles Dillon is well known and needs no introduction.

The book has been digitised at http://www.box.net/shared/7h6e1f5ono where it is a 4.7MB PDF that downloads in seconds. You can find the dearmad vs. dearmhad distinction on p223 of the book (which seems to be page 237 of the PDF).

However, a word search shows the phrase gan dearmad only occurs in the book on p159 (p173 of the PDF) where it occurs in the poem Seóthó, a thóil, ná goil go fóill, by Eoghan Rua Ó Súilleabháin (1748-1784). It may be that metrical analysis of the verse requires a certain pronunciation, or that the phrase is listed in the index as pronounced /dearamad/ because it is normal to use more conservative pronunciation when reading 18th century verse?

the phrase occurs in chapter 30 Mo Sgéal Féin, where PUL spells it "gan dearmhad", and the speaker who read MSF for me did indeed pronounce it as "gan dearúd".

I see it now on page 223 of TYI - with m and epenthetic vowel but if that's taken from the poem, then it is unlikely to be representative of speech by native speakers. Songs and poems often contain forms not used, or only rarely used in speech: liúm, and rachaimid with a /x/ for example in Munster.

I've got a sound file of the poem in Teach Yourself Irish and the person who is reciting it says "gan dearúd".

Thank you Ramón, I can't find the sound files at the moment, but it clears up the fact that it is gan dearúd in Muskerry Irish = just as PUL actually wrote "gan dearmhad", with a lenited m...

Since the m and the epenthetic vowel are shown in TYI, it is possible that such a form may be used in songs and poetry.

Maith agaibh.Next up 'tríocha'.

Some say thrucka.Some say thrócka.Weird one as the fada on i goes unsaid whichever way.....

Macdara, the fada doesn't go on the i of triocha if you specifically wish to show the pronunciation. But I am not sure you mean thrucka and thrócka.

Tríocha /trʹi:xə/
Triocha /trʹuxə/

Debate about this word is a little bit artificial as the word was artificially revived anyway: deich is fiche being the more natural traditional way to say "thirty".

PUL had tríochad. But I believe triocha is the more normal Munster form.

Yes, the numbers tríocha, caoga, seasca, seachtó, ochtó, nócha are all literary forms rarely used in speech. They are the only forms used in the CO.

For 30, the forms are:

deich is fiche = the number 30 in general reference, counting, and such

deich fichead = form use in saying someone's age, or in counting out money or cards

In counting specific things which are mentioned we use deich X fichead, where X stands for the thing being counted: trí clocha fichead, trí dhuine fhichead.

Note that fichead is the genitive of fiche, so trí cinn fhichead, literally means "three ones (heads) of twenty".

Tríocha /t'r'i:xə/
Triocha /t'r'uxə/

are understood, but as I said, rarely used in everyday speech. The literary forms are mostly used in referring to years.

Ailín, can you advance any view as to why "deich..fichid" is used in PUL? I know of deich..fichead (the genitive of fiche) and of deich...AR fhichid (the dative) but he writes fichid instead of fichead.

Examples:

Ní'l ansan agat ach trí cinn acu, ach tá deich gcinn fichid acu ar fad i ndíchlaonadh an aon fhocailín sin amháin. (Mo Sgéal Féin)

Níor bh'fhéidir dómh-sa, ná d'á lán dem' shórd, dul isteach sa choláisde sin, mar do chaithfinn deich bpúint fichid
sa mbliain do dhíol asam féin ann. (ibid)

Níor chuir na chúig bhliana fichid atá imthighthe ó shin aon fheabhas air. (ibid)

An tarna lá fichid d'Abrán na bliana san do bhronn uaisle catharach Bhaile Átha Cliath saoirse na catharach san orm féin agus ar an Ollamh Kuno Meyer, mar gheall ar a raibh déanta againn ar son na Gaeluinne. (ibid)

Sometimes fhichid with lenition:

Bhéinn lán tsásta dá bhfaighinn deich bpúint fhichid air. [Séadna]

Bhíodh trí chéad agus chúig cinn fhichid ann de phíopaí fíona [Niamh]

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Ailín, can you advance any view as to why "deich..fichid" is used in PUL? I know of deich..fichead (the genitive of fiche) and of deich...AR fhichid (the dative) but he writes fichid instead of fichead.

No idea, unless the genitive singular and the dative singular had fallen together in speech? Fichid also occurs as a plural after numerals: trí fichid (60), cheithre fichid (80), chúig fichid (100).

What are the usual forms ,then,of daichead,caoga and so on?

"daichead" is daichead in speech or "ceathracha" in Connachta.

caoga = deich is daichead
seasca = trí fichid
seachtó = deich is trí fichid
ochtó = cheithre fichid
nócha = deich is cheithre fichid
céad = céad or chúig fichid

trí fichid literally means "three twenties".

Tá sí trí déag is cheithre fichid = she is 93 (years old)

Also dhá scór is one way of saying daichead. Leathchéad for 50.

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Also dhá scór is one way of saying daichead. Leathchéad for 50.

Yes, but "scór" for "twenty" appears to be Connachta usage. At least, I've never heard it from any CD speakers. Leathchéad, of course, is widely used.

Scór does exist in Ulster as well.

Maith agaibh,a chairde.In this case the CO actually seems to make for ease of speech and also brevity.But i can see that the really fluent speaker will use the dialect variants,which do sound attractive.Rather as a real English speaker from England will say 'it's five and twenty to six.' That wouldn't occur to me,for instance.