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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2010 » Triple-meaning « Previous Next »

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 488
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 05:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"Tá an casúr briste aige."

A sentence of this kind can have at least three distinct meanings:

1. He has broken the hammer.

2. He has the broken hammer.

3. He has the breaking-hammer (hammer used for breaking things).


How do fluent speakers distinguish between these different meanings on hearing/reading such a sentence, particularly in the absence of any context, e.g. as the title of a book?
1 and 2 above seem especially difficult to me.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 05:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

2. An casúr (sin atá) aige tá sé briste./Tá an casúr atá aige briste.

3. Aigesean atá casúr briste na gcloch. (the hammer of breaking the stones.)

Without the object:
3. Is aige atá an casúr lena mbristear (clocha / rudaí). Is aige atá an casúr a mbristear (clocha/rudaí)leis.

For the third idea Irish can express it differently:
3.. Tá an t-ord aige.

ord = sledge hammer (Spelling?)

We have a joke in Ireland where a foreigner asks how to get to Cill Áirne and the reply is "Well I wouldn't start from here anyway!"

Similarly while translating from Irish to another language is a good exercise for a learner translating into Irish is a minefield and should be avoided or checked with someone further up the learning curve.

There are numerous disastrous mistranslations to be seen on signage in Ireland where well-meaning enthusiasts went out of their depth.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 05:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

What is wrong with "Bhris sé an casúr" for the first one? Is it necessary to say "Tá sé tar éis an casúr a bhriseadh"?

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 489
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 06:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks, Taidhgín, for your alternatives. Most of them wouldn't have occurred to me.

Just to be clear about my question: I'm aware there are other ways to translate the meanings of the three English sentences in an unambiguous way but I was wondering how a fluent Irish speaker would understand the likes of "Tá an casúr briste aige" on being presented with it out of context.
I've gotten the impression it would be the first meaning but confusion with the second must be inevitable?

quote:

There are numerous disastrous mistranslations to be seen on signage in Ireland where well-meaning enthusiasts went out of their depth.


There's no shortage of them around my neck of the woods :)

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 337
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A Shéamuis, out of context it could only mean "he has broken the hammer", as the meaning "he has the broken hammer" could only be inferred in context, ie where everyone know a hammer has been broken.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10861
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 04:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I agree with David.

Also, in spoken Irish there would also be clues in tone of voice.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 772
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 07:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Aonghus is right. Intonation and the shifting of the stress would normally tell you which is referring to what.

quote:

1. He has broken the hammer.

2. He has the broken hammer.

3. He has the breaking-hammer (hammer used for breaking things).



I can't speak for Connachta and Ulster but in Munster, one would probably say as follows:

Tá an casúr briste aige /tɑːn kɑˈsuːr ˌb'r'iʃd'ɪ ɡ'e/ = He has broken the hammer

Tá an casúr briste aige /tɑːn ˌkɑsuːr ˈb'r'iʃd'ɪ ɡ'e/ = He has the broken hammer/breaking-hammer

However, I note that Ó Sé (62) says that such phrases where the primary stress is shifted across to a following stressed syllable of a following adjective or a noun in the genitive are confined to a certain number of set expressions. Ó Cuív (241) merely say that there is a tendency to do so but doesn't say that such practice is confined to certain set expressions.

Another way of telling them apart is that one would be more likely to bring the prepositional pronoun to the front when saying that "he has the broken hammer/breaking hammer"; "Aige sin atá an casúr briste". You would also say "casúr chun briste" for a "breaking hammer".

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 490
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks all for your input.
I'm certainly confident now that confusion of such forms need never be a problem for good speakers.

Apparent cases of ambiguity in language seem always to be more a problem for learners than any difficulty for fluent speakers.
Presumably where genuine confusion arises native speakers will, sooner or later, develop some way around it. Where they haven't done so it's simply because they've never found it enough of a problem to warrant a solution.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10867
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

never found it enough of a problem to warrant a solution.



Sin é.



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