"in the grave, dead"

PUl has sa n-iúir, but this is "san úir" in the Standard. is there a slender "n"?

Any chance "úir" here is being confused with "iúr"?

I don't think so.

The passage is:

quote:

Dúbhradh an chaint sin, nó caint de’n tsórd, chómh minic sin, agus do tuigeadh chómh maith san fírinne na cainte, gur measadh, ’n-a dhiaigh san, nuair a bhí Brian agus Niamh agus an chuid eile acu sa n-iúir, nár chaint a bhí sa sgéal ach gur dhein óigbhean uasal éigin an siúbhal san, ’n-a h-aonar, ó Dhún Sobhairce go Tonn Clíodhna, agus an tslat ’n-a láimh aici agus an fáinne óir ar an slait, agus ná fuair sí ar an slígh ach an uraim agus an onóir ba mhó a dh’fhéadfaí a thabhairt di.

Maybe it's the Muskerry form of úir...
Similarly in Donegal we say "an easal" instead of "an t-asal"... (changes gender + the preceding consonants are slender).

quote:

I don't think so.

No, I was referring not to the meaning of the word but it's form and pronunciation.

What Lughaidh says of an easal vs an t-asal also occurred to me, where the preceding consonants are slender or broad in the article depending on the following word and its initial vowel. Normally, before front vowels the n in the singular article is slender and broad before back vowels, and a t- before a vowel is similarly broadened or slenderised, but then you have the likes of "ar an inse", with a broad n in the article, like in the rhyme "Dreoilín a fuaireas thíos ar an inse, fé chabha cloiche, is carabhat síoda air . . ."

Then it should be spelt "uinse" or "oinse"...

. . . and eorna agus eolas should be spelt órna agus ólas respectively. An t-eolas, an eorna - broad t, broad n.

Tá barraíocht eolais curtha agaibh ar shú na heorna, is eagal liom....

Bíodh leitriú caomhach, ná bíonn?

quote:

. . . and eorna agus eolas should be spelt órna agus ólas respectively. An t-eolas, an eorna - broad t, broad n.

Only heard them with a slender t/n so far. In what dialect have you heard broad ones?

Lughaidh, IWM says that where a word starts with eó- or ea- it normally takes a broad t or broad n before it. An ealla (swan) is another one, pronounced "an ala". In fact, many of these words can be written like that too, eg "an earra" written as "an ara" in PUL's works [earra being feminine in PUL's works...] See section 408 of that book, which is probably where Ailín got the information from.

Sú na heorna? Well, PUL preserves the historic fifth-declension genitive in his translation of John's Gospel: "Tá buachaill anso agus tá chúig bhulóga eórnan aige agus dhá iasg" (John 6:9). Although I recall Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne saying the genitive eornan is only used in calcified placenames in CD.

In "san iúir", PUL maybe assuming the same process is at work. ie, he thinks the words begins with "i", but the "i" is not pronounced and an "n" before it pronounced broad.

Note what PUL told Osborn Bergin about the word for "Europe", ie Eúróip (which I spell Iúróip in my Niamh):

quote:

OJB: Ar fuaid na hEúróipe. How is the first syll. to be pronounced? Of course the earlier form is Eóraip (gen[.] Eórpa) as in Tadhg Gaolach, Eoghan Ruadh &c.
PUaL: I have always heard “an Eúróip ”. The first syllable having a full “ú ” sound not introduced by a “y ” sound.”

This indicates the word is pronounced /u:'ro:pʹ/, although apparently on Oileán Chléire, the pronunciation was /ju:'ro:pʹ/. Note that Pádraig ua Duinnín also said in his dictionary that the word for Europe was pronounced Iúróip, so it would be interesting to know if "Eoraip", noted by Osborn Bergin as the 18th century word for Europe even in Munster had been preserved all along in Galway and thence to the Standard, or whether the Standard "revived" a forgotten form...?

quote:

Only heard them with a slender t/n so far. In what dialect have you heard broad ones?

Corca Dhuibhne

T.F. O'Rahilly points out in Irish Dialects Past and Present (page 142) how Scottish Gaelic retains a /j/ sound in forms such as "iubhar" but that "In initial eó (O. Ir. éu, éo), eo, iú, iú, as in eórna, iuchair (Manx oarn, oghyr), the e- or i- has nowadays no phonetic value in Irish or in Manx, except when certain proclitics, like the article an, precede. In Scottish [as O'Rahilly calls Scottish Gaelic], on the other hand, the e- or i- in such combinations is still pronounced, usually like consonantal i (Eng. y- in young)". He also mentions Eochaill, Co Cork anglicised as Youghal, which betrays the original /j/.

However, O'Rahilly isn't entirely right. I know that in parts of the south the name Éamon is pronounced /jamən/ and a colleague tells me that iascaire is pronounced /jisɡɪr'ɪ/ in parts of Donegal.

quote:

This indicates the word is pronounced /u:'ro:pʹ/, although apparently on Oileán Chléire, the pronunciation was /ju:'ro:pʹ/.

I suspect, though, that the Cléire form is influenced by English.

Does anyone have any idea how to pronounce this word?

An Iorua (an Ioruaidhe in the old script)

/ən u'ruə/? /ən u'rui:/?

I know that word very well. :)

I pronounce it /ən ɨ'ruə/.

(But I am not a native speaker, and I am frequently wrong.)

it's a very interesting word - the n of norway seems to have been absorbed into the article (a bit like naranja in Spanish became "an orange" in English).

But why was it spelled IoruaIDHE?

Yes, the absorption of -n to the definite article was my conclusion too. Are there any other examples from country names or placenames in Irish? I can't think of any off the top of my head. (Though there are plenty examples of it in anglicisations of placenames, but they don't count.)

The -idhe in the former spelling may have been a relic of the original Old Norse pronunciation *norðvegr, with the -dh- and -ð- being pronounced in both as voiced dental fricative and metathesis switching the place of the -ua- and the -ve-.

It's Nirribhidh in Scottish Gaelic (clearly either a borrowing of the Scots form or heavily influenced by it) and Norlynn in Manx which shows the common suffix -lainn as in Irish, once the original name was no longer understood.

(Sweden is an tSualainn in Irish and Manx - yn Toolyn - but an t-Suain in Sc. G. which again is either a borrowing or influence from Scots.)

(Message edited by GRMA on December 14, 2010)

The Manx for Ireland is Nerin which clearly comes from "in Éirinn".

Hi Carmannach! That's a good example as well - do you know for how far back in Manx it was Nerin? I know in very Late Manx (i.e., after, say, 1950) the grammatical system had broken down considerably and mutations at least either weren't happening or were happening where they shouldn't.

Also, does anyone know the earliest form for 'Norway' recorded in any Goidelic language?

I'm also reminded of Sealtainn for 'Shetland' which, while it looks like a metathesised form of the English word, is much older I would guess - it strikes me as a hyper-correcton of ON hjetland with the 'hj' analysed as a lenited /s/ and 'put right' to create the standalone noun.

(I always liked, by the way, that the Irish for New Zealand was 'Nua Shealtainn' which of course is not New Zealand at all, but 'New Shetland'.)

That reminds me of another country name in Irish that always surprised me - why would it be An Phortaingéil not *An Phortagail (as it is in Sc. G.; the Mx. is borrowed from Eng.)? The word would have come via Latin, or French, or Spanish, or English, or even direct from Portuguese sailors and fishermen?

Was there some folk etymologising going on ('Port an Gael')? I can't account for that intrusive -n- at all, otherwise.

quote:

do you know for how far back in Manx it was Nerin?

Sorry, I've no idea.

Another example closer to home, from Corca Dhuibhne, is the form "aomhóg" instead of "naomhóg". This clearly arose from native speakers understanding "an naomhóg" as "an aomhóg", due to consonant elision. You will hear "criú na naomhóige" and "criú na haomhóige" in speech.

quote:

(I always liked, by the way, that the Irish for New Zealand was 'Nua Shealtainn' which of course is not New Zealand at all, but 'New Shetland'.)

Not true! It's An Nua-Shéalainn, Séalainn being an Irish form of Zealand, itself the name of a Dutch province after which New Zealand is named. I think you're getting confused with Zetland, a now defunct way of spelling Shetland. As an aside, the three main islands of New Zealand were once called New Leinster, New Munster and New Ulster by British colonists! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Munster_Province

Ah, thanks for the correction, Carmannach. As I said in another thread, I do make mistakes and I will continue to make them. A mixture of mishearing and folk etymology makes a fool of me...

Sjælland is the name of Zealand in Danish, Norwegian and Swedish.

Yes, there is an island in Denmark called Zealand but New Zealand is actually named after Zeeland in the Netherlands. I think Abel Tasman, a Dutchman himself, may have named it New Zealand.

On the same lines as "aomhóg", we hear "i gcomhair na hOllag" in parts of the south which came from the idea that "an Nollaig" was in fact "an Ollaig" and so lead to the genitive "na hOllag".