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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 13, 2010 » I liked « Previous Next »

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Seáiní_mac
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Username: Seáiní_mac

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 10:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is maith liom... I like

Ba mhaith liom... I would like

How would you say:

I know that you like it

I know that you liked it

I know that you would like it


Any help would be great. Causing me some confusion

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10841
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá fhios agam gur maith leat

For the past tense, I'd be inclined to use "thaitin" instead, because that expresses liking more clearly than wishing for.

http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=thaitin

Tá fhios agam gur thaitin sé leat

Tá fhios agam go mba mhaith leat


http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Lang=ga&Text=maith

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Croga75
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Username: Croga75

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Perhaps

tá a fhios agam gur maith leat

tá a fhios agam níor mhaith leat

tá a fhios agam níor mhaith leat

not completely sure, wait for someone with more expirience.

sorry if Im way off

Má tá Gaeilge agat, ansan abair é!

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 297
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Perhaps

tá a fhios agam gur maith leat

tá a fhios agam níor mhaith leat

tá a fhios agam níor mhaith leat

not completely sure, wait for someone with more expirience.

sorry if Im way off



The níor ones are wrong.

Tá a fhios agam nách maith leat (present tense)
Tá a fhios agam nár mhaith leat (past/conditional tense)

Tá a fhios agam ná taithneann sé leat
Tá a fhios agam nár thaithn sé leat

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Croga75
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Username: Croga75

Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

á. was typing as you posted Aonghus. Thats the problem learning from a book. I only see set ways.

Má tá Gaeilge agat, ansan abair é!

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Croga75
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Username: Croga75

Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Go raibh maith agat a Chork Irish. I actualy read my book wrong, too lazy to look 2 lines lower I guess :)

Má tá Gaeilge agat, ansan abair é!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10842
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is "nách" a dialect version, David?

I'd have written
"nach maith leat"
"nach dtaitníonn"
"nár thaitin" (missing "i")

(thaithin is a widespread spelling, thaitin is the standardised spelling).

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Aonghus, nách has a long a in Cork Irish. /nɑ:x/

"thaitin" - well that is from some other dialect

"thaithn" - is one syllable in Cork Irish, pronounced "hang". /haŋʹ/

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 733
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 05:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

nách is also the Corca Dhuibhne form - with long a - and I imagine is standard across Munster.

The Standard forms are:

thaitin - preterite
taitníonn - present indicative

The Corca Dhuibhne forms are:

taithnigh /tan'hiɡ'/
thaithnigh /han'hiɡ'/
taithníonn /ta'n'hiːn/

Taithin /tahin'/ and thaithin /hahin'/ also sometimes occur in CD.

I'm using Lexilogos.com as Lughaidh recommended but it doesn't have the symbol denoting palatalised consonants.

As for saying "I know that you liked it", you could indeed say "Tá a fhios agam gur mhaith leat é" though this could also mean "that you would like it". The form "go mba mhaith leat é" is also heard for the conditional mood but is not the standard.

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Brian_leisciúil
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Username: Brian_leisciúil

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 06:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

To sum it up, in the standard :

I know that you like it — Tá a fhios agam gur maith leat é or go dtaitníonn sé leat, depending on what's being "liked."

I know that you liked it — Tá a fhios agam gur thaitin sé leat

I know that you would like it — Tá a fhios agam go dtaitneodh sé leat

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 735
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 06:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

You've left out "Tá a fhios agam gur mhaith leat é" for "I know that you liked it".

Also "Tá a fhios agam go dtaitníodh sé leat" - past habitual

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 299
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

interesting on go mba v. gurbh

Pl used gurbh where the next word was lenitable (gur mhaith), as it is clear from lenition what the tense is.

But where the next word is not lenitable, he uses go mba.

eg: iad do chur thar n-ais sa Mhumhain ag triall ar an muintir go mba leo iad.

Go mba makes the tense clear, whereas gur leo could have been either tense (but probably clear in context anyway).

I don't know if this is traditional Cork dialect or if he was borrowing something useful from the Conemara?

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 738
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

No, go mba is common in both Cléire and Corca Dhuibhne and normally in the conditional mood.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín, maybe I misinterpreted the gurbh/go mba difference, as the examples I found were with "leo" - it might be a past vs. conditional distinction, but I'll look back through my files for this...

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 99
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 08:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

But nobody says "Tá a fhios agam" in speech. It's abbreviated to -

"Tá's 'am".


:)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3721
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 10:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Or "tá's agam" in Ulster ;-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 747
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 05:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

"Tá's 'am".



In Corca Dhuibhne, the prepositional pronoun is very commonly omitted to become tása, beitheasa, raibheasa?, bhfuileasa?, bheachasa, bhíodhsa

I note that "tá's 'am" also occured in Rathlin and still does occur in Scotland. Manx has "ta's aym".

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3723
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 09:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

In Corca Dhuibhne, the prepositional pronoun is very commonly omitted to become tása, beitheasa, raibheasa?, bhfuileasa?, bheachasa, bhíodhsa



Should be something like "tá a fhiosa", "beidh a fhiosa" etc. In Munster they like adding -a to words, ie. b'fhearra etc :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 749
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Should be something like "tá a fhiosa", "beidh a fhiosa" etc. In Munster they like adding -a to words, ie. b'fhearra etc :-)



Yes, in certain forms that is true. I was trying to write the forms as one might say them to give people an idea of how they are actually said. "beidh a fhiosa" is "beitheasa", which you wouldn't guess from the spelling.

By the way, I'm now using lexilogos for the phonetic symbols - thanks again for that - but how do you get the palatalisation mark used for Irish?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 315
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín, you mean that "beidh a fhios agat" is pronounced /bʹehəsə/ with no "gat" at the end? And not /bʹegʹ is ə'gut/?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 316
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Palatalisation mark - will you use the ʹ that I use? or a raised j? You can get all the Irish symbols from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_for_Irish

/bʲehəsə/?
/bʲegʲ is ə'gut/?

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 317
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh, it's got nothing to do with an a being added (like fearra, barra) - as Ailín made clear that "the prepositional pronoun is omitted" to "a fhios agat" becomes "fhiosa"

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 751
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 06:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Ailín, you mean that "beidh a fhios agat" is pronounced /bʹehəsə/ with no "gat" at the end? And not /bʹegʹ is ə'gut/?



Well, the preposition is used to show specifically who the subject is, but as far as I understand, is dropped when the subject is obvious. I don't think the /gʹ/ is pronounced at all in this form. Ó Sé (552) treats tása (< tá a fhiosa) as a defective verb and gives a number of examples. It appears to be particularly common in question forms: Ná raibheasa?, Ná fuileasa?, An bhfuileasa? and as I said, where the subject is obvious: dh'fhaighidís síntiús nuair a bhíodhasa gur ó Bhaile an Chlaidh iad (this last example, Ó Sé: 552)

The verb feadair is also very commonly used, of course: Ná feadaraís?, An bhfeadarabhair?, etc.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3725
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

By the way, I'm now using lexilogos for the phonetic symbols - thanks again for that - but how do you get the palatalisation mark used for Irish?



The apostrophe that is used in traditional Irish phonology (eg. /k'aN/, /t'ax/, etc) isn't used to indicate "palatalisation" in phonetics (ie. in the IPA). The apostrophe means "ejective consonant".
Palatalisation, as you wrote, is represented by a raised small j.

Now, before slender vowels, bilabials aren't really palatalised, you pronounce them by spreading the corners of your lips (I don't know if it's the right expression in English, by the way your mouth is as if you were smiling).
Spreading lips is represented by a small <-> symbol under the consonant, but it's a rare symbol, I didn't see it on Lexilogos. Maybe you can drop it... anyway a broad consonant would be different so you'd know...

You may transcribe bí [bi:]
and buí [bwi:]

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 320
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh "spreading the lips" is sufficient in English. You don't need "the corners" in the middle of that phrase - I am not saying it is wrong, but I don't think native speakers would automatically produce the phrase you came up with. I only say this as you mentioned you weren't sure about the phrase.

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 753
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 10:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

The apostrophe that is used in traditional Irish phonology (eg. /k'aN/, /t'ax/, etc) isn't used to indicate "palatalisation" in phonetics (ie. in the IPA). The apostrophe means "ejective consonant".
Palatalisation, as you wrote, is represented by a raised small j.



Thanks for that Lughaidh. You talk of an apostrophe being used in traditional Irish phonology to show "slender" consonants but are you sure it's the same as an apostrophe? In the Irish monographs it is straight and not curled like a regular apostrophe. Using a simple apostrophe in posts here always leaves the "slender" marker and the stress marker looking virtually identical so I'm to keen to find the Irish "slenderisation" marker online.

I understand the differrence between phonetic and phonemic notation. The Irish monographs use a phonemic notation whereas I notice on Wikipedia that a phonetic notation is used throughout.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 323
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 10:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín

I use ' as the stress mark. It is unicode character U+0027
I use ʹ as the palatalization mark. It is unicode character U+02B9

You can set up macros in Word to insert them, I think... Aonghus might know more about that?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10855
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 10:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Aonghus might know more about that?



Afraid not.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I use Open Office, but this should work in Microsoft Word:

If you know the character code, you can enter the code in your document and then press ALT+X to convert it into a character. For example, press 002A and then press ALT+X to produce *. The reverse also works. To display the Unicode character code for a character that is already in your document, place the insertion point directly after the character and press ALT+X.

So 0027 ALT+X will produce '
and 02B9 ALT+X will produce ʹ

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3727
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Anyway these apostrophes, no matter if they are curled or straight, don't mean "palatalised" in the IPA...

See : http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/ipa-pop-up-2.html

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 325
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Lughaidh I think Ailín would be happy with a transcription similar to that in IWM and GCD.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3728
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 02:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Thanks for that Lughaidh. You talk of an apostrophe being used in traditional Irish phonology to show "slender" consonants but are you sure it's the same as an apostrophe?



It depends on the book or on the editor...

quote:

Using a simple apostrophe in posts here always leaves the "slender" marker and the stress marker looking virtually identical



the stress marker is a vertical raised line, it isn't curled nor oblique so normally there's no problem.

quote:

I understand the differrence between phonetic and phonemic notation. The Irish monographs use a phonemic notation whereas I notice on Wikipedia that a phonetic notation is used throughout.



I'm not sure. Quite often on Wikipedia, I saw a phonemic transcription written between square brackets with a number of illogical things... I guess the people who wrote them haven't understood what's the difference between phonetics and phonology.

quote:

Lughaidh I think Ailín would be happy with a transcription similar to that in IWM and GCD.



That's a phonemic transcription. You don't need to use IPA for that, except for a couple of symbols.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 755
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

the stress marker is a vertical raised line, it isn't curled nor oblique so normally there's no problem.



Normally, except when you come on here. Using the stress marker from Lexilogos and the apostrophe on my keyboard gives me this, for example: /kaˈl'iːn'/. One can hardly say there that the stress marker and apostrophe are easily distinguishable at first sight.

I have no problem when typing in Word but I remember using the phonetic symbols in a Word document and pasting them into an email I sent David a while back. The text came out as gobbledygook at his end.

Does this page on Wikipedia conform accurately to the IPA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Irish?

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 756
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I use Open Office, but this should work in Microsoft Word:

If you know the character code, you can enter the code in your document and then press ALT+X to convert it into a character. For example, press 002A and then press ALT+X to produce *. The reverse also works. To display the Unicode character code for a character that is already in your document, place the insertion point directly after the character and press ALT+X.

So 0027 ALT+X will produce '
and 02B9 ALT+X will produce ʹ



That's great, David, but a bit complicated for a klutz like me! As I said, I normally use the "Insert" function in Word and take symbols from the phonetic symbols box but they don't seem to come out here for some reason, when I paste them into a message.

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 757
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Just to say that I have no problems using the phonetic script of the IPA, and indeed, that is one way around the problem, but I'm more accustomed to using the phonemic notation of the monographs.



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