mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through December 13, 2010 » Questions on when not to use the genitive « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 219
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 05:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

This is a quick summary of Lars’ site of his explanation of when a genitive is not used, with comments on the relationship of the rule to what I have read in PUL’s books.

1. when two nouns in genitive relation occur together, the first is lenited but kept in the nominative. Example from PUL: gan ar chumas mhuintir Shasana aon chur isteach a dhéanamh orthu, where mhuintir is functional genitive. But there are counter examples from PUL: chromas-sa ar bheith ag cur tuairisge na gcómharsan air; ag bun sráide Dhún ar Aill. Also, after a preposition/compound prepositional phrase that takes the genitive, the genitive is always used by PUL, even if that creates a double genitive: “i dtreo tí an tsagairt”. Other examples are “i n-aice tíghe feirmeóra” and “i bhfeidhil tíghe Shéadna”. Also it seems that where a noun phrase is a unit, this rule could be broken too: “tháinig sé go dorus tíghe an tsagairt”, where “doras tí” is a single phrase. Also “is air a bhí cúram oibre an lae” and “clann na beirte drithár ab eadh iad”, where “obair an lae” and “beirt drithár” are phrases. Maybe another example from Séadna is “b'fhéidir, dáltha thíghe an rígh, gur bh' usa dul ann 'ná teacht as”, but there thí is both in the genitive and lenited. ?????

2. exception to 1: if the second noun is indefinite, a double genitive can occur. Lars gives the example seol an bháid adhmaid, but I am lacking examples from PUL. ?????

3. exception to 1: if the first noun is a verbal noun, it goes in the genitive (or in other words, the past participle is used): lucht foghlamtha na Gaelainne. No specific example found in PUL, but not not a point of query either.

4. exception to 2: nouns of quantity following the verbal noun don’t go in the genitive: ag ól roinnt báinne. No specific example found in PUL, but not not a point of query either.

5. where the object of the verbal noun is indefinite has a further attribute (ie, qualified by a noun or adjective) : Lars’ example is “tá sé ag léamh leabhar maith”. One possible example in PUL is “í raibh oiread agus aon fhocal amháin Gaeluinne ag aon duine des na múinteóiríbh a bhí ag múineadh aos óg”, but these examples from PUL appears to contradict: bhí sé ag ól bhainne raímhir; ag déanamh gnótha sagairt; ag déanamh oibre sagairt (unless these latter two are examples of 2 above?). Also, these examples from PUL are of a definite noun that has a further attribute and is not in the genitive: “ag foghluim Teagasg Críosdaidhe” and “é ag múineadh an Teagasg Críosdaidhe”. ?????

6. nouns following numbers. Lars says that the genitive is only possible after “one” or “the first”. Otherwise, it is: teach an dara fear, stampa dhá scilling. No examples from PUL. ????

7. nouns followed by numbers or letters as numbers. Lars’s example is “roth bus a haon”. No examples from PUL. ???

8. with feminine proper names, if they have an adjectivial attribute or stand next to a surname. Lars’ examples are “teach Bhríd Rua”, “teach Bhríd Ní Cheallaigh”. No examples from PUL. ????

9. after prepositions that require the genitive if the noun is part of an infinitive construction. Lars’ example is “le linn an cluiche a bheith ar siúil”. But PUL has “le linn an airgid do thabhairt di dhó”.

10. if a verbal noun comes directly after a derived preposition. Lars’ example is “le linn dul abhaile”. No examples in PUL, but not queried either.

11. if a verbal noun comes directly after “chun”. PUL has “chun dul isteach sa pháirc sin”. But PUL has examples of “chun labhartha leatsa”. Chun labhartha is his normal phrase, although one example of “chun labhairt” is found too. I think labhartha is the one verbal noun that is most likely to be in the genitive directly after chun. A proviso that if a possessive intervenes, then you would need the genitive, eg “chun a mharaithe, chun a dhéanta”.

* What about this example from Niamh. Should it be “ag cur feasa”?: “bhí an Leagáid ag cur fios ar an manach so agus ar an manach úd agus é ag déanamh gach aon tsaghas ceistiúcháin orthu, agus bhí an gabha ag faire chuige”.

* What about this from Séadna. “Nuair do 'neósfadh sé dhóibh a luíghead airgead a bhí agat-sa”. Why not “airgid”. Does a laighead always resist putting the genitive case on the following word?

* What about this from Séadna. “Agus buile ar Mhicil i dtaobh a rádh to mbéadh sé de phláinéid ar Shéadna go thug sé geallamhaint phósda do Shadhbh”. Why not “i dtaobh a ráite”?

(Message edited by corkirish on November 26, 2010)

(Message edited by corkirish on November 26, 2010)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10785
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 06:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"ag cur fios ar" is a stock phrase meaning to send for.

I'll pass on the others. They look correct to me, but I can't say why.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 231
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2010 - 09:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Aonghus, under "feadar" in Dinneen's dictionary, it says that "fios" was originally the verbal noun of feadar. So maybe "ag cur fios" can be understood along the lines of the rule about verbal nouns normally not going into the genitive. As Lars says "if a verbal noun is the object of another verbal noun [the second verbal noun does not go into the genitive]. Instead, as in German, in infinitive construction is used: e.g.: ag iarraidh fiafraí = trying to ask". Just as it wouldn't be "ag iarraidh fiafraithe", so it is not "ag cur feasa"...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian_leisciúil
Member
Username: Brian_leisciúil

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 09:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I know that sometimes (in some dialects) the object of a verbal noun tends not to go into the genitive if it's singular and indefinite.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge