mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through November 29, 2010 » Problem with genitive case in grammar book « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maireadaseacht
Member
Username: Maireadaseacht

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 02:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

One of the books I'm using to study Irish is 'Irish Grammar' by Éamonn ó Dónaill. When discussing noun declensions, this author gives examples of the genitive case which I would consider from studying Latin and other languages as properly belonging to the accusative case. One example is 'ag ní na gcarranna'. I would have expected 'na carranna' to be in the accusative case here, but he says it is in the genitive. Can anyone explain this to me, please?
Many thanks for reading this.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10778
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/subst2.htm#genitivverwend

noun as the object of the verbal noun

* definite noun after the verbal noun:
Tá sé ag déanamh na hoibre = He is doing the work ("He ist at doing the work")
* indefinite noun after the verbal noun, when it has no further attribute:
Tá sé ag cur báistí = It's raining ("it is at laying [a] rain")
* noun with the preposition a (= "zu")that comes before the verbal noun, when the verbal noun itself is the attribute of another nouns (in Ger. most Partizip I); see also verbal noun as an attributive:
fear na mná a phógadh = the man that is kissing the woman ("man that woman to kiss")

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maireadaseacht
Member
Username: Maireadaseacht

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thank you for that, Aonghus. However, to me "ag déanamh" is 'doing', and that's a part of a verb, and 'doing the work' should put 'work' into the accusative case. Surely there is another Irish word for 'the doing' of the work. Surely nouns are preceded by an article in Irish. I am doing 'the washing' would make 'washing' a verbal noun. I am washing would be different. Please convince me that what you say is right, so that I can proceed with my studies.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maireadaseacht
Member
Username: Maireadaseacht

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 05:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

So I found it, the rule! And that was what I wanted. In an old book, Teach Yourself Irish EUP 1961 by Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín:

Lesson VI

"The English present participle is expressed by the preposition ag ,,"at" and a verbal noun;.........and, if there is an object, it appears in the genitive case:....."

Excellent, all I need.

So every time I see the preposition 'ag' before a verbal noun, I use the genitive. Alles klar!

I wouldn't have gone hunting that without your input. Many thanks.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 913
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 06:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Please refer to page 152 of Irish Grammar where the basic rules are discussed. The object is not always genitive.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 691
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 06:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It's simple:

Táim ag déanamh na hoibre = literally "I am at the doing of the work". Therefore "déanamh na hoibre" means "the doing of the work". "an obair" must therefore be in the genitive.

quote:

So every time I see the preposition 'ag' before a verbal noun, I use the genitive. Alles klar!



Except when the noun is not a definite noun and is qualified by an adjective or adjectival phrase:

Táim ag déanamh oibre
Táim ag déanamh obair mhaith (good work)

Táim ag déanamh na hoibre
Táim ag déanamh na hoibre maithe (THE good work)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 215
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 11:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín, you have a knack of pointing rules that sound complex elsewhere simply.

Now I know PUL didn't have to obey the modern rules, and that there is nothing strange if he didn't, but can you comment on whether this would be accepted today.

* ag déanamh oibre sagairt (sagart as an indefinite noun qualifies oibre just as maith qualifies obair in the examples you gave)

Also, I wondered about this:

*ag múineadh an Teagasc Críostaí

Teagasc appears in the nominative. I thought it was because Teagasc was qualified by an adjective, or because the term is viewed as a phrase as a whole, but I don't know for sure why.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maireadaseacht
Member
Username: Maireadaseacht

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 06:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks, Seánw.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3708
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2010 - 06:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Also, I wondered about this:

*ag múineadh an Teagasc Críostaí



maybe because "an Teagasc Criostai" is the title of a book, ie. considered as a proper name...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/



©Daltaí na Gaeilge