Hello all,

I am trying to get the imperative straight in my head, but I'm not sure if I understand the autonomous.

This question is only for the verb bí. I understand it for others (I think), example:
Ceannaíodh sé! = Let him buy!
Ceannaítear é! = Let him be bought!

However for bí:
Bíodh se! = Let him be!
Bítear é! = Let him be!

It seems you can convey the same thing with the 3rd person singular and the autonomous, just the subject of one is the object of the other.

Or is this wrong?

bíodh sé: this does indeed mean "let him be", although the sense is not complete. "Bíodh sé ann" would make sense.

But bítear é is just not right. Ceannaítear é! is right, as ceannach is a transitive verb, so you can say "let it be bought", "may one buy it", "may people buy it".

But bheith is not a transitive verb. You can't say "bítear é". I don't think the autonomous imperative would be frequently needed -- the question is a little artificial -- but "bítear sásta leis" would mean "let people be content with it".

Now an interesting question would be what the difference is between the autonomous imperative and the present subjunctive imperative.

Bítear sásta leis: this is an imperative. A command in other words. But "go rabhthar sásta leis" would be more along the lines of "may people be content with it". The nuance is tiny...

Darran,

I have just realised your mistake.

You said "ceannaítear é! = Let him be bought!", and then said "bítear é! = Let him be!"

In other words, you regard the autonomous form as passive, with "é" effectively the subject.

But the autonomous is not passive although many people say it is. It is an active verb form. Ceannaítear é does not mean "let him be bought", as if it were passive. It means "let someone buy it". The subject is not expressed, but é is not the subject, but the object in that sentence. Now, I am not saying that "let him be bought" is not an adequate English translation in context, but regardless of how you would say it in English, the autonomous is not passive.

So "bítear é" means nothing - as é is not the subject.

quote:

However for bí:
Bíodh se! = Let him be!
Bítear é! = Let him be!

"Bitear é" is wrong, because it would be a "ta sé fear" mistake.
Actually it looks like you can't say "let one be him" because you'd need to use "is" in an autonomous form, but "is" has no autonomous form in Modern Irish.

"Biodh sé" is the only possible sentence here.

quote:

"Biodh sé" is the only possible sentence here.

Seconded.

If we are trying to say "Let him be", i.e. using the modh ordaitheach, to say "let him exist", I'm not entirely sure "bíodh sé" is entirely correct. Surely you would need to qualify it in some way such as "Bíodh ann dó" or "Bíodh sé ann"? The substantive verb bí is normally used with an adjective or an adverb or a verbal noun phrase so "Bíodh sé" looks a bit bald to me. You would of course say "Má tá bréag ann, bíodh", but in that case it's tagged onto the end of the sentence as a sort of affirmative.

If you are saying "let him be" in the sense of "leave him alone", you would say "lig dó".

Interetingly, the copula doesn't seem to have an imperative form. Phrases like "Gurab/Nárab ea!" are present subjunctive imperative rather than strict imperative (modh ordaitheach).

quote:

Interestingly, the copula doesn't seem to have an imperative form

It wouldn't really make sense: How could one command something to be something?

Speaking of "Let him be" reminds me of Genesis

An Bíobla Naofa has:

Gein 1:3 Dúirt Dia: “Bíodh solas ann,” agus bhí an solas ann.

I think you are right; "Bíodh sé" on its own doesn't really work, and would at best be ambiguous.

quote:

It wouldn't really make sense: How could one command something to be something?

Well, in the sense of "Let it exist" as an order.

Sea, ach an é an chopail a bheadh i gceist ansin? Is dócha go bhfuil an diagacht agus an teanga fite fuaite le chéile anseo (arís)!

Tá "eis" ann freisin:
http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=eis&lang=2

Eiseadh sé!

quote:

Sea, ach an é an chopail a bheadh i gceist ansin?

Ó ráiníonn foirm sa bhfoshuiteach láithreach a bheith sa teangain i modh guí, leithéid "gurab ea!", taibhsíodh dom go mbeadh foirm don modh ordaitheach leis ann ach féach ná fuil.

Mar a dúirt mé, an diagacht arís!

quote:

Mar a dúirt mé, an diagacht arís!

Ní thuigim.

Bhuel, do dhuine fearacht mise, níl ach neach amháin gur féidir leis an chopail a úsáid sa mhodh ordaitheach! É siúd a labhair i Geineasais.

Bhí tú féin ag clamhsán ar na mallaibh faoi ró thionchar na Críostaíochta ar an nGaeilge....

(Message edited by aonghus on November 22, 2010)

(Message edited by aonghus on November 22, 2010)

quote:

Bhí tú féin ag clamhsán ar na mallaibh faoi ró thionchar na Críostaíochta ar an nGaeilge....

Níl aon bhaint ag an gcopail sa Ghaelainn leis an gCríostaíocht.

Ag déanamh grinn atáim, ach leath dháiríre.

Is léir go ndeachaigh an chopail ordaitheach as an gcaint ceal úsáide.

Tá an ceart ar fad agat! Is iad na Bráithre Críostaí a chúm agus a cheap agus a mhúnlaigh gramadach na Gaelainne ;o)

Agus an stór focail freisin! Sórt Newspeak Críostaí atá sa Nua Ghaeilge Caighdeánach, faoi smacht ag Aos Leathair!

quote:

faoi smacht ag Aos Leathair!

chuala an trácht thairis an Aonad Speisialta Leathair a bheith istigh sa Vatacáin, maith go leor. Bhuel, sa Vatacáin a bhí sé ar dtúis ach dh'aistríodar arís is arís eile é go háiteanna éigineach eile, dálta go leor nithe eile nách é . . . LOL

Bhuel, leathair de shaghas eile a bhí i gceist agamsa.

quote:

Bhuel, leathair de shaghas eile a bhí i gceist agamsa.

An bhfuil aon tsórt eile leathair ar bun istigh sa Vatacáin?! LOL

Thanks for all the responses!

quote:

In other words, you regard the autonomous form as passive, with "é" effectively the subject.

David, I think this was my main misunderstanding of the autonomous. I was still thinking of it as passive, rather than active with a general subject.

quote:

"Bitear é" is wrong, because it would be a "ta sé fear" mistake.
Actually it looks like you can't say "let one be him" because you'd need to use "is" in an autonomous form, but "is" has no autonomous form in Modern Irish.

Lughaidh, that's very interesting. Did "Is" have an autonomous form in Old Irish?

quote:

It wouldn't really make sense: How could one command something to be something?

Speaking of "Let him be" reminds me of Genesis

Aonghus, funnily enough part of the reason I started wondering about this was because I was trying to translate the start of the Bible into Irish and then check my translation with An Bíobla Naofa. The first part of Genesis went well, except I noticed "Bíodh solas ann!" for "Let there be light!".

The Bible might not be the best text to cut your translator's teeth on.

Oh I agree, I just did it as a little game. I'm certainly not going to try the whole thing.

Good going then if "Bíodh solas ann" is all that tripped you up!

Well I didn't go too far, only Genesis 1. I also had other trip ups, but I was able see the reason for them.

Translating, in general, is very nice though. I read the story in English, then try to express what I read in Irish without looking back at the English. I find it a good way to force myself to think in Irish.

My favourite part is when you write something which has a "feeling" you couldn't get in English. It's interesting to see yourself thinking in a new way.