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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through November 29, 2010 » Cré na Cille ar DVD « Previous Next »

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1300
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá DVD "Cré na Cille" ar díol faoi dheireadh - ó 17 Samhain... nó ó 27 Samhain lá más é an Béarla atá agat!
http://rosg.ie/ie/about/Cr_na_Cille_DVD_15
http://rosg.ie/en/about/Cr_na_Cille_DVD_15

(Ní fheicim go fóill é sna siopaí idirlín a luaitear: is dóigh mar sin gurb é an leagan Béarla is cruinne.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10699
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Iontach

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=6293

quote:

Le fáil ó Litriocht.com ón 27ú lá de Mhí Shamhna 2010
Available on Litriocht.com from the 27th November 2010


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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 585
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Is the Máirtín Ó Cadhain documentary available on DVD?

Máirtín Ó Cadhain: Is Mise Stoc na Cille

I'm really sorry I missed it, it looks like a very interesting doc based on the clip.

http://rosg.ie/en/productions/Mairtn__Cadhain_Readers_Under_Fire_9/clips

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10707
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

É seo, b'fhéidir?

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=5005

quote:

Rí an Fhocail agus Máirtín Ó Cadhain sa gCnocán Glas DVD
Cló Iar Chonnachta 2007

Dhá chlár a cheiliúrann saol agus saothar Mháirtín Uí Chadhain.
I 2006 rinne RTÉ coimisiúnú ar Rí an Fhocail, clár speisialta a dhéanann plé ar scríbhneoireacht Uí Chadhain agus a fhéachann lena shuí ina shaol féin agus i saol a linne.
Tá agallaimh ann leis na scríbhneoirí Micheál Ó Conghaile, Joe Steve Ó Neachtain agus Louis de Paor, chomh maith le miondrámaí bunaithe ar shaothar an Chadhnaigh, agus ábhar cartlainne.
Bhuaigh sé duais don chlár Gaeilge is fearr ag na Irish Film and Television Awards 2007 agus don chlár ealaíon is fearr ag an Celtic Film Festival 2006

Is i nGaeilge atá an dá chlár agus fotheidil Bhéarla orthu.


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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 586
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I wonder what he would think about the state of the Irish language now, forty years after his death?

In the clip, he is asked [Engl. trans]: "What's in store for the Gaelic-speaking community?"

"Death, I would imagine."
"I hate to have to say that."

He gives no timeline, however. Here we are in 2010 and the Gaeltacht is still around, although under severe pressure. Since the death of Ó Cadhain we have seen the emergence Raidió na Gaeltachta, TG4 and the internet.

I wonder if he'd reassess his views if he were still around?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10708
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I wonder if he'd reassess his views if he were still around?



I don't think the underlying facts have changed. Unless parents in the Gaelacht bring up their children speaking Irish, the language will die.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1003
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 06:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Are there no families rearing children through Irish outside the Gaeltacht communities?

There are more children learning all subjects through Irish in almost any urban Gaelscoil than in all of the primary schools in some of the Gaeltacht areas. I cherish the Gaeltacht and visit as often as I can but the issues in the Gaeltacht are the same as before: lack of jobs for local young people and the constant encroachment of English speakers returning from abroad to care for their ageing relatives and take over family holdings ...

There may be more Irish spoken in the Gaelscoil playgrounds than in any of those attached to Gaeltacht schools. Are they mirror images of each other? Gaeltacht children trying to practise their English while Gaelscoil children practise their Irish?

Before the critics chime in with "Ah, but their language is not traditional Irish" I suggest they consider Patrick Kavanagh's poem "Brother Michael" where he includes a verse "Skull of bard, thigh of chief ...."

Who are the people who support the Gaelscoil movement? From my experience many are Gaeltacht people now living outside the "official" Gaeltacht. They speak Irish enthusiastically themselves and would gladly speak it to their children if they were not married to a non-Irish-speaker. They try -- just as their parents in the Gaeltacht tried.

What of the scorn poured on the efforts of non-native speakers of Irish to use the language and transmit it to their children? To put it mildly I deplore it. I say good luck to lucht na hathbheochana. I admire their enthusiasm. Go n-éirí go geal leo agus go raibh lucht a gcáinte níos tuisceanaí agus níos báúla le teanga bheo an lae inniu.

Who will buy and treasure this DVD? I believe Irish will thrive long after we have passed on. In my youth I tried to read Cré na Cille with only moderate success. In recent years I have had the pleasure of listening again and again to the recording of Winnie Mhaitéis and other Conamara actors reading the book. If the present level of support for the speakers of Irish is sustained I believe Irish will go from strength to strength.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 587
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 12:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I don't think the underlying facts have changed. Unless parents in the Gaeltacht bring up their children speaking Irish, the language will die.



Some continue to do so, but are enough doing it? It appears that only 25% or so in the 'official' Gaeltacht use Irish in the home.

It's so wide open to interpretation. We here that Irish is stronger than ever (according to some), yet today in the Irish Times they were claiming that Irish was 'nearing extinction'. So which is it? I find it odd that the death of Irish is considered inevitable by many.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 06:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The death of involuntary Irish spoken by monoglots is already past the point of no return. The deliberate use of Irish as a first or second language by bilinguals is growing. Even in the Gaeltacht the best Irish speakers will use both languages throughout the day but the significance of some -- only some -- "Official Gaeltacht" areas is that Irish comes first on public social occasions.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10709
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 06:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I was speaking as one of those who was raised speaking Irish - and not by a Gaeltacht speaker, and who goes to great lengths to ensure the Irish I have is passed on when I made the statement above, and I stand by it.

The Africans say, más fíor, that it takes a village to raise a child; I believe that isolated - and they are - Irish speaking families in the Galltacht cannot replace a living, breathing community of speakers.

Such isolated speakers will inevitably have gaps in the domains in which they can comfortably speak Irish.

Therefore any revival must focus on both; retaining as much as possible of the Gaeltacht, and encouraging vigorous growth outside it.

And yes, employment is key - and not just any employment but employment where fluent native speaker Irish is a prerequisite.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 609
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 09:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

What of the scorn poured on the efforts of non-native speakers of Irish to use the language and transmit it to their children? To put it mildly I deplore it. I say good luck to lucht na hathbheochana. I admire their enthusiasm. Go n-éirí go geal leo agus go raibh lucht a gcáinte níos tuisceanaí agus níos báúla le teanga bheo an lae inniu.



Groan . . . here we go again . . . LOL

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 116
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 01:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Ailín is right to say "here we go again". The posts on this board about specific questions and queries on the Irish language are much better than the posts talking around the decline of the Irish. Taidhgín, can you help me with some of my queries on Niamh?

As for the decline of the Irish, it is highly likely that even good native speakers do not have the full-blown native sense in Irish that monoglots would have had. See O'Rahilly's comment in his book on Irish dialects on this point: he made some comment that that bilingualism is the deathknell of a language, but I can't lay my hand on the book just now.

When I was last in Muskerry, the old de Salle College was pointed out to me, actually called Coláiste Íosagáin. The person I was speaking to, one of the best native speakers in the area, said she didn't know what Íosagán meant... I pointed out it was the diminutive of Íosa and meant "little Jesus", but she wasn't sure I was right... I think it undeniable that the native speakers have lacunae in their Irish nowadays. As I have said before, try asking "native speakers" what the plural of "aghaidh" is, and then you will see the consternation on their faces as it is clear they don't know. Aghaidheanna? Aghaidhe? Aighthe? I have asked this question of a number of people:much discussion ensues - actually, some people would have a firm view (and in that case, it is usually the CO version that pops out), but most don't.

It is clear to me that the native speakers can chit-chat in the language, but it is not clear to me that they can say everything in Irish. Try asking a native speaker how to say "the space shuttle is going to do a sling shot round Jupiter". Actually, Dennis King recently mentioned a phrase, which he said was marked "lit.", or literary usage in Dónall's dictionary. I would suggest that none of the words marked "literary" can be used in the Gaeltacht - given that the educational system even in the Gaeltacht is geared towards learning the CO, and eg in Cork Irish there are only three books in print in the dialect - which I don't believe are used in the local school curriculum - even the Gaeltacht areas are not educating the children in their "native" language in the same way as English-speaking children are educated in theirs.

Think about it: English-speaking children learn non-colloquial language, not in the home, but at school. If they didn't read any literature at school, they would have small vocabularies even in their native language. At school, you would reasonably expect an English-speaking child to read several Shakespeare plays, a good deal of poetry (Dryden, Tennyson, Wordsworth?), some 19th century literature (maybe some Dickens, Austen, Hardy?) and some more contemporary literature (Catcher in the Rye? Lord of the Flies?). So what do Irish native speakers study? Are they wading through Seathrún Céitinn, Eoghan Ruadh Ó Súilleabháin, Aogán Ó Rathaille, a couple of books by Peadar Ó Laoghaire, An tOileánach, a couple of books by the Grianna brothers and Cré na Cille at school? Actually, no! They are reading a few books in Standard Irish, but no "classic" works.

In the Gaelscoileanna, which may have a different curriculum from the Gaeltacht, up until 2 or 3 years ago, there was some Munster literature on the curriculum. Specifically, a two-page extract from Peig and a seven-page extract from Fiche Blian ag Fás. In total, 9 pages of Munster Irish. But with only three books in print in Cork Irish, I don't think the situation in the Gaeltacht is any better, but I would appreciate a link to the actual curriculum if anyone has one.

I am not talking the Irish down, but native speakers of a language require immersion in literature, and not just immersion in a home environment where the washing of the dishes is discussed in the native language. I spoke about this to a Punjabi friend in London: his home language is Punjabi, but being raised in England, he notes that his Punjabi is not really the same as the Punjabi of his cousins in the Punjab, who spend all their lives speaking the language. He can only talk about day-to-day domestic issues in Punjabi, and has to shift into English for anything more complex. He can't read or write the language, and has no exposure to Punjabi literature. Actually, that is the situation in Ireland too. After all, if native speakers of Irish don't know what Íosagán means, then we have entered some kind of twilight zone...

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 897
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 01:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The force is very strong. English, to put it bluntly, is likened to the "Nothing" from The Neverending Story. [And mind you, English is just a tool. It could be Chinese or any other language.] But we have to understand that Irish is not in a vacuum. So many things are in its place. Just place anything in the slot that doesn't fit in with the mass hegemony that is being pressed upon every aspect of our patrimony -- economics, morals, religion, education, music, etc. Fill in the blanks. If you don't abide by it, or you raise to much of a ruckus, you suffer economic consequences -- the green martyrdom. The problem is that the Irish people want it both ways, they want the "bounty" of modern life, while the method used to achieve the bounty brings with it the death of their language and culture (the real bounty). The substratum on which Irish lived and thrived is practically lost because it isn't a language of this time. The Irish haven't conquered anybody, don't hold sway in the halls of power. Their language is the language of poor folks who had been ruled by others hundreds of years. So your culture invested in other sources of meaning. But then you went over to the conquer's sources of meaning, and the foundation is being lost. Language is inherent, but no particular language is necessary. But the modern world makes demands of you that cause you (unconsciously) to conform to it. Conformity is English in Ireland. The holdouts are either on the road to English only, or they are the last rebels of lost centuries. The whole trend is world-wide. Look at the minorities in China, India, the US, the EU, etc (practically the whole continent of Africa, if you like). There is an awakening on the front for sure, and all is not lost, but Ó Cadhain saw the "Nothing" coming in his day. Look around Ireland and see the English, the modern shops and commerce, see the bankers and the bureaucrats, and the people in lock-step -- a conquered country. I don't know how long Irish can ride on good will, or a "revival" founded on a system almost completely full of the very aspects that cause its decline. It may very well be that it is consigned to suburban hobbydom. But the bright side is that there is time. And the crash and economic depression, while terrible in itself, is an opportunity to step away from the mentalities that produce death of so much, including language.

Sorry for the rant, who don't want to read it, but I kind of get tired of the incomplete-picture approach to Irish, like language is unrelated to many other aspects of our lives, and as if massive language death in the world is a natural occurring historical thing. Yes, we need to remain focused on the scope of this board, but I am sure that what is on the minds of Irish speakers is not whether their grammar is spot on, but whether there language has a place in modern celtic-tiger/EU/IMF Ireland, despite the talk.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 305
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 03:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

"native speaker"

As someone who lives in the Gaeltacht, I have to say that many have a simplistic view of the term "native speaker".

It covers a wide variety of speakers and abilities.

Some native speakers may know Céitinn off by heart, many have never heard of him.

PS - even native speakers have trouble with Ó Cadhain - but they had trouble with him even at the time he was writing.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 03:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Taidhgín, can you help me with some of my queries on Niamh?

Corkirish, I probably could but my contributions would be unscholarly.

For example all I could say about "Dom lom deirg ainneona" is that it seems a doubly emphatic version of "dom ainneoin" meaning "in spite of me" or "despite my best efforts". Both "lom" (lom-díreach) and "dearg" are used for emphasis (dearg-bhréag). I could not parse and analyze such a phrase in grammatical terms.

I only speak Irish with family and friends. I only use the ordinary dictionaries to supplement a knowledge aquired over sixty years learning, listening, reading, and speaking Irish. I am also aware that there are far more scholarly people here who can provide you with chapter and verse to support their views. I respect such scholarship. I am aware that there are people here who are passionate about one or other of the dialects. I respect them also. One of the characteristics of Máirtín Ó Cadhain's writing however was that he was not constrained by his own dialect.

What puzzles me about the scholars is that they seem to prefer to discuss Irish through English. As a naive daily Irish speaker I would think they might use the Fóram trí Ghaeilge amháin. I have tried many times to initiate a discussion on that Fóram and I appreciate the responses of those who joined me there but I am surprised at the neglect of that particular Fóram.

Ar an dtaobh eile ní ábhar iontais é: tá an scéal ann faoi scoláirí móra na Gaeilge a bheith cruinnithe thart ar uaigh duine dá gcomhleacaithe agus a chónra á ligean síos. Nuair a fuair siad radharc ar an uchtphláta agus ar an inscríbhinn chualathas duine acu ag rá: "six mistakes".

Those who do not want to read my unscholarly contributions can ignore them. I do not set out to antagonise anyone. I apologise if I have. Nor am I obliged to respond to all messages posted here. Least of all those that are beyond my competence. This is a recreational Fóram where issues relating to the Irish language are discussed. There is nothing obligatory about it other than politeness and avoidance of controversial subjects such as politics and religion. Perhaps respect for and use of the CO should be added. If so I'm off.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Taidhgín, I would be totally against adding "respect for and use of the CO" as an "obligatory" thing on Daltaí. It should be optional - not just use of it, but respect for it. But we are falling into what I call Taidhgín's Trap - talking about issues around the language.

I am a learner and would rather post and get answers to my queries. You may feel I ought to ask my questions in Irish, but I am a learner, and need to get quite in-depth queries across. This forum is not just a practice forum, but also a forum for learning queries. And I consider both those things better than arguing constantly about "the definition of native speakers" and such like.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1009
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 04:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Corkirish, thank you for your response to my last post. I must take care to avoid "Taidhgín's Trap" myself -- however unintentional.

May I ask if you intend to publish a revised version of Niamh? Or are you merely reading it as part of your own study of the language?

Be assured I will be delighted to help if I see that others have not already explained things as I would have done.

I agree totally with your last sentence. I also hope to encourage use of the "Comhrá Oscailte as Gaeilge" Fóram by writing there occasionally.

Go n-éirí leat sa saothar atá ar bun agat.

le dea-mhéin,

Taidhgín

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 898
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The scope of the board is pretty wide open. It seems that the one requirement is that it is related to Irish. Beyond that the moderator gets to judge what is outside the scope, or what is creating an atmosphere which hampers the greater scope of the forum -- the enjoyment and advancement of the Irish language. So you're both stating extremes. There is no need to respect the CO here. Why would there be, since Irish is more than the CO. One may want to have respect for the people who write in it, but they can think the whole CO is absolutely stupid. On the other end, we don't need to just stick to grammatical questions. Applied linguistics and social questions have a place here because it actually CAN help you learn the language better. My only caveat is to not beat the horse, which I have to watch our for. We can discuss till the cows come home, but we have limited power in our lives. I find the forum, when discussing social issues, better as a clearing house of ideas, and a way to clarify one's understanding in the greater scheme of things. What kind of situation am I learning this language in? I would hate for language learning to be just about learning a language. If so, let me off the bus.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Corkirish
Member
Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 05:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Taidhgín, I am reading Niamh as part of my study of Irish. Every word that I don't know is looked up and then entered into my Dictionary of Cork Irish, with the sentence itself usually entered too as an example.

But I am planning to publish my Niamh. Of course it depends on whether I could find a publisher to do it. I want to find someone to edit it, someone with an expert knowledge of Munster Irish, and find an expert in ancient Irish history to ask some questions on Ireland 1000 years ago, to perfect my historical footnotes.

I plan to publish it with a long English introduction by me, with plenty of footnotes on the Cork Irish in it. It hacks me off that all of these "modernisations", eg Séadna by Liam Mac Mathúna, are published with a long introduction in Standardised Irish--why is it assumed that someone who is reading Cork Irish wants to read a CO intro? Such intros should be in Cork Irish or in English.

I think it is time to admit that nearly everyone in the Irish reading audience is a learner, and not to pretend otherwise, so an introduction in English is quite appropriate. Of course, I could write it in bad Irish and find someone to correct my errors, and so publish a preface in Cork Irish, but that would not really be authentic Irish, as I am not a native speaker, and in fact nearly everyone buying the book would be a learner anyway.

I plan to include all the footnotes in the published version. There are numerous passages in Séadna that call for explanation, including words impossible to find in Dónall's dictionary etc. [I am thinking of the passage about "táid na braimíní ag siosraigh", translated on www.scoilgaeilge.com as "the little farters are whispering", but in fact meaning "the colts are neighing", owing to the fact the words are hard to find in dictionaries]. So my version will be a study version, shorn of the pretence that every reader will pick it up and understand everything without notes.

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Corkirish
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Username: Corkirish

Post Number: 119
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 05:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Taidhgín, if you spot any errors in the first 15 chapters of Niamh that I have already modernised at http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/niamh-in-modernised-spelling please me know. The document, 63 pages long, can be printed out at that site.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 06:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well talk about a "Taidhgín Trap" I'll let you imagine what my response to the following might have been:
quote:

I plan to publish it with a long English introduction by me, with plenty of footnotes on the Cork Irish in it. It hacks me off that all of these "modernisations", eg Séadna by Liam Mac Mathúna, are published with a long introduction in Standardised Irish--why is it assumed that someone who is reading Cork Irish wants to read a CO intro? Such intros should be in Cork Irish or in English.

All I'll say is go bhfóire Dia ar do chiall.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 611
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 06:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Perhaps respect for and use of the CO should be added.



Oh, God, shoot me now, please, somebody, anybody . . . .

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 612
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 06:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

The force is very strong. English, to put it bluntly, is likened to the "Nothing" from The Neverending Story.



Very good, Seán!

Taidhgín asks why some of us post messages here in English. Well, in my own case - I don't know about others - I respond in the language used by the original poster, using Irish or English accordingly. I could just as easily type in Irish as in English but unlike Taidhgín I'm not on here to proselytise to the masses. What language people choose to speak or write in is their own business and on this forum people have a choice. If the other person chooses to write in English, that's fine by me. As for the Irish-only forum being little used, I can't really say why as I tend to respond to posts from others here rather than posting queries of my own. So, I'll leave it to others to answer that one.

As for all this talk about "traps", perhaps it's time for one particular trap to be closed? LOL

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10713
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 12:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

. As for the Irish-only forum being little used, I can't really say why as I tend to respond to posts from others here rather than posting queries of my own.



Mo dhála féin, don gcuid is mó, seachas má thagaim ar bhlúirín nuachta a fheictear dom a beith spéisiúil do lucht an chláir seo tré chéile. Cuirim ar an dtaobh seo é cionn is gur féidir le cách a dhá chianóg rua a chuir leis an gceist, beag beann ar a chumas Gaeilge. Chomh maith leis sin, tá allagar bríomhar ar na Blaganna a shásaíonn mo riachtanais maidir le ceisteanna a phlé as Gaeilge.



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