I have now modernised 14 of Niamh's 59 chapters, with full notes - thanks to Carmanach and Aonghus for all their replies to help me. It can be viewed and printed out at http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/niamh-in-modernised-spelling (56 pages of A4)

Fantastic work. Exactly the kind of thing I need to get my teeth into. Bail ó dhia ar an obair a chara, grmma.

My dictionary of Cork Irish is now 480 pages long, and has 5,668 headwords, with definitions backed up by quotations for Peadar ua Laoghaire's works. See http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/my-irish-english-dictionary

I have a copy of Niamh in "modernised" spelling (and seanchló).
There's no publication date given but it looks like it was produced in the 50's.

A Shéamuis,

I haven't seen that edition, but it is highly unlikely to be the same as the edition I am preparing. For a start, it is in seana-chló and without the voluminous notes on West Muskerry dialect I am adding in. Secondly, it is unlikely that that editor chose all the spellings I am choosing. I say that because I have seen some semi-modernised editions in seana-chló from the 50s, and they normally interfere with the dialect and change some things in the text.

There is an edition, the original of Mo Sgéal Féin, from 1915. Every word is the original. Then at the other end of the spectrum, there is a modernised, caighdeánised edition, which removes the dialect completely - so completely that a nonsense is made of some passages (eg where PUL complains about people saying "bhí siad" instead of "do bhíodar" - I think that passage had to be dropped in the caighdeánised edition, as it would have him complaining about "bhí siad" instead of "bhí siad", which is a nonsense, and I have been told by an authority on Cork Irish that the passage was dropped). Then there is a "mid-way" edition in seana-chló, where much of the dialect remains, but all dative plurals are ditched, "do" as a relative is ditched, "do" as the perfective particle is ditched etc. Semi-caighdeánised.

You probably have a semi-caighdeánised edition. If you post a paragraph or two, I can tell you what has been changed. Can you tell me what your edition gives in paragraph 4 of chapter 13? Does it have "mura h-éagcóir" with an h? The original reads:

quote:

Mura h-éagcóir d’á dhaoine féin M’lsheachlainn do chur as an Árdrígheacht ní h-éagcóir do Bhrian an Árdrígheacht do ghlacadh.

Another problem in these spelling modernisations is where an author puts a deeper dialectal form in where it did not stand in the original. Liam Mac Mathúna's Séadna, largely admirable, changes all incidences of "sula" in the original to "sara", but while sara may be the proper Cork form, it seems wrong to me to change the original and make it "even deeper dialect".

So I trust my approach to updating the spelling, partly worked out after consulting Ailín in emails, more than I do an edition produced in the 1950s, at the height of the enthusiasm for standardisation.

Unfortunately, many texts by good Gaeltacht speakers were ruined by the acute zealousness to standardise everything with gay abandon or replace the original author's forms with the editor's own pet forms. One individual who edited a text from a particular Munster Gaeltacht a number of years ago is so ignorant of the dialect that she was seeking to replace "'on" in forms such as "chuas 'on Daingean" with "ón"!! "Chuas ón Daingean"!!

Ó. Mo. Dhia.

(Nach "ón nDaingean" a bheadh ann pé scéal é, nó an bhfuilim amú sa ghramadach arís?)

Ailín and Aonghus, I presume "chuas 'on Daingean" means "I went to Dingle", but why would "don" be used and not "go dtí"? Or have I missed the whole point? [I know your real point is that this 'on does not mean "from", but I still don't know why it is 'on Daingean...]

It's a versatile word

do [réamhfhocal]
chuig, go, go dtí (ag dul don Spáinn); chun cóngaracht nó gaol a léiriú (gar don áit, is mac dom é); ar láimh, i leith (tabhair, taispeáin, dó é; bheith dílis, go maith, do dhuine); le briathra géillte (d'umhlaigh sé, bheannaigh sé, dó; ná géill dó); gan bhriathar (bia don ocrach, Nollaig faoi mhaise daoibh); le haidiachtaí (is breá duit é; b'fhíor dó é; is cuma duit); gan an chopail (duitse é seo); le linn (ag teacht abhaile dom; sa chomhrá dúinn)

quote:

Ailín and Aonghus, I presume "chuas 'on Daingean" means "I went to Dingle", but why would "don" be used and not "go dtí"? Or have I missed the whole point? [I know your real point is that this 'on does not mean "from", but I still don't know why it is 'on Daingean...]

Both "don" in the form "'on" and "go dtí'n" are used in Corca Dhuibhne, where it's very common, in the sense of "to (a place)". I'm surprised you haven't come across it in West Muskerry. The 'on comes from dhon, itself coming from don.

Don normally eclipses in CD except in the sense of "to (a place)" where it lenites lenitable consonants, puts bh before f, t before s, and leaves d and t unchanged, so "chuas 'on Daingean" but "thána ón nDaingean". Chuas 'on tsiopa, 'on bhfarraige, 'on Ghaillimh, etc.

Go dtí'n has come to be understood as a regular preposition plus article, and therefore eclipses a following consonant: Chuas dtí'n mBuailtín/chuas 'on Bhuailtín.

Very interesting, Ailín, especially dtí with no "go" in front.

quote:

I haven't seen that edition, but it is highly unlikely to be the same as the edition I am preparing. For a start, it is in seana-chló and without the voluminous notes on West Muskerry dialect I am adding in. Secondly, it is unlikely that that editor chose all the spellings I am choosing. I say that because I have seen some semi-modernised editions in seana-chló from the 50s, and they normally interfere with the dialect and change some things in the text.

It's definitely different from your version. For one thing it's heavily abridged (it looks like a school edition).
I'm very familiar with the problem of "caighdeánised" versions of classical works and usually avoid them like the plague - I picked up this copy of "Niamh" cheap though and there's a nice map of the battlefield in the back.

quote:

You probably have a semi-caighdeánised edition. If you post a paragraph or two, I can tell you what has been changed. Can you tell me what your edition gives in paragraph 4 of chapter 13? Does it have "mura h-éagcóir" with an h? The original reads:
quote:
Mura h-éagcóir d’á dhaoine féin M’lsheachlainn do chur as an Árdrígheacht ní h-éagcóir do Bhrian an Árdrígheacht do ghlacadh.

I haven't been able to find that sentence or even an abridged version of it. The chapter arrangement has been altered too.


One question about your version:
Why "Bórú"?
Bóroimhe or Bóru/amha are much more common and I've heard it pronounced /boːrəv'ə/ or /boːriv'ə/ several times e.g. on the RnaG series "Scéala Éireann" by Prof. Dáibhí Ó Cróinín.

A Shéamuis, PUL spelled it Brian Bóramha in the original, and -amha- is usually /u:/ in Muskerry Irish. I am thinking that a pronunciation with /v/ maybe lárchanúint-inspired, as Foclóir Póca shows a lot of words with mh in pronounced with v.

Bóramha would be /bo:'ru:/
Bóroimhe would be /bo:'ri:/ [see para 365 in IWM]

But it was Bóruma in old Irish, and so Bóramha seems right. And there is a word bórumha in Dinneen's dictionary meaning "cattle tribute", which is one possibly meaning of the name.

But I am open to persuasion on this subject, especially if you can dig anything else out about this.

It may be that Dáibhí Ó Cróinín, who I believe is from Muskerry, prefers the version Bóroimhe? Even if he does, his pronunciation would seem to be lárchanúint rather than IWM. Although why, I wouldn't know. Although he is a professor, I am not sure I would value Dáibhí Ó Cróinín's views over those of someone specialising, not in history, but particularly in Cork Irish. I have been told that his book, An Cúigiú Díochlaonadh, which he believes is in Cork Irish, is in very poor Cork Irish--not really in Cork Irish at all, as it is in fact semi-caighdeánised. But I haven't read it, and don't know myself.

(Message edited by corkirish on November 17, 2010)

quote:

Very interesting, Ailín, especially dtí with no "go" in front.

Indeed, the "go" can be used or left out in CD. As for "tháim ag dul 'on Ghaillimh", etc., I believe Scottish Gaelic has something very similar: "tha mi a' dol dha'n bhùth" (I'm going to the shop), "tha mi a' dol dha dh'Ìle" (I'm going to Islay) etc. Before a vowel the preposition seems to be doubled: a' dol + dha + dha + Ìle, perhaps a device to prevent hiatus between two vowels.

A Shéamuis, I realised I too have that semi-modernised version of Niamh. it is called Niamh nua-eagrán - and it is a very, very abridged version. No, the sentence mura h-éagcóir is not in it - nor is any of the chapter that I am talking about. Whole chapters are omitted, or reduced to a paragraph, or reordered in this book. I am afraid that when I see these capital Rs and S's instead of the long r and long s, I smell a rat... they are not the original editions.

The first paragraph of Niamh says:

quote:

Sa bhliain d’ aois an Tighearna naoi gcéad cheithre fichid a ceathair do thóg Brian Bóramha Luimneach ó‑s na Lochlanaigh. Do loisg sé an chathair, agus an méid des na Lochlanaigh nár marbhuigheadh agus nár tógadh ’n‑a bprísúnachaibh, b’éigean dóibh teitheadh le n‑a n‑anam as an áit. Chuaidh cuid acu síos go h‑Inis Cathaigh. Bhí seilbh ag Lochlanaigh i n‑Inis Cathaigh an uair sin agus ar feadh mórán aimsire roimis sin. Bhíodar tar éis na manach a dhíbirt as an oileán agus iad féin do dhainginiughadh ann, agus bhí an áit caothamhail eidhsáideach eacrach acu, lámh le faraige agus lámh le tír. An sochar agus an saidhbhreas a bheiridís leó as an dtír mór‑thímpal, le guid agus le fuadach agus le creachadh, choimeádaidís ar an oileán é go dtí go dtagadh na loingeas agus go bhféadaidís é chur soir abhaile nó é dhíol, nó é mhalairtiughadh ar bhia nó ar éadach nó ar arm, nó ar pé neithe eile a bhíodh a teastubháil uatha.

Apart from spelling changes, I note the following in the edition you're talking about:

do thóg---> thóg
ó-s na---> ó na
des na---> de na
'n-a bprísúnachaibh---> ina bpríosúnaigh
agus ar feadh mórán aimsire roimis sin---> deleted
tar éis na manach a dhíbhirt---> tar éis na manaigh a dhíbirt
agus bhí an áit caothamhail eidhsáideach eacrach acu, lámh le faraige agus lámh le tír. An sochar agus an saidhbhreas a bheiridís leó as an dtír mór‑thímpal, le guid agus le fuadach agus le creachadh, choimeádaidís ar an oileán é go dtí go dtagadh na loingeas agus go bhféadaidís é chur soir abhaile nó é dhíol, nó é mhalairtiughadh ar bhia nó ar éadach nó ar arm, nó ar pé neithe eile a bhíodh a teastubháil uatha---> this whole section deleted


And so on, throughout the book.

This sort of thing should be illegal. It says An tAthair Peadar Ó Laoghaire on the cover of the book - but it is a bowdlerised version of his work.

The actual pronunciation of "Bóramha/Bóroimhe" is an interesting question. All I would say to David is that the loss of intervocalic /v/ and /v'/ is not always a cast-iron rule in the south. Fossilised forms may occur in literary and historic titles, and in songs.

quote:

But it was Bóruma in old Irish, and so Bóramha seems right. And there is a word bórumha in Dinneen's dictionary meaning "cattle tribute", which is one possibly meaning of the name.

"Cattle tribute" or something like "cattle enumerating", see under "ríomh" in Dinneen. The "mh" - broad or slender - is an integral part of the word's basic meaning, without it it's simply a phonetic rendering.

Also, "Bóramha" is the sole form found in Ó Dónaill and on focal.ie ("bórú" has another meaning).


I'm sure old Brian would appreciate having it spelt correctly :)

quote:

A Shéamuis, I realised I too have that semi-modernised version of Niamh. it is called Niamh nua-eagrán - and it is a very, very abridged version.

Yes I think that's it. The map is probably the best thing about it.