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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (November-December) » Archive through November 17, 2010 » Phonemes « Previous Next »

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Liam_mac_g
Member
Username: Liam_mac_g

Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 09:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Does anyone know of a site that shows/tells how to pronounce the phonemic symbols. According to the book I'm studying , the symbols are those of the International Phonetic Association.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3699
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

There are two systems:
- phonetics -> the symbols are those of the IPA
- phonemics (=phonology) -> every language uses its own symbols (most are from the IPA but they are used in a different way). In phonemics, you have to learn how every phoneme is realised in every context.

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetics

The phonemic symbols may be a bit different according to the dialect. There are several books on the Irish dialects, where the author explains what phonemes exist in the dialect and how they are realised in all existing contexts.

An example, the word "oíche", night.
In phonology, in the Donegal dialect it would be transcribed /ˈi:x'ə/.
Which would be realised (and so transcribed) phonetically [ˈiːçɪ].

Hope it helps...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 866
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 11:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Also here's info on the IPA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipa

Usually if the book is using their own variation, they give an explanation of the variation in it. What is the book you're studying? Straight IPA is hard to come by, actually. For instance, most English dictionaries still use their own system. I think Oxford is the only one that uses IPA, although there are many advantages to it, as Lughaidh has shown with oíche.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Liam_mac_g
Member
Username: Liam_mac_g

Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thanks to you both. The Book is "The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo: a phonemic study" by Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh.

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 868
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I think that one is in a modified IPA from samples I've seen.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 525
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I think all of the dialect monographs published by the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies use a modified form of the IPA. Diarmuid Ó Sé in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne uses more or less the same system as that used by Brian Ó Cuív in The Irish of West Muskerry. In the DIAS texts a mark is placed after palatalised consonants to distinguish them from velarised consonants something lacking in strict IPA. I think Wagner may have used a system more closely linked with that of straight IPA, if I'm not mistaken? I don't have either Gaeilge Theilinn or LASID to hand here at the moment.

Lughaidh is right. In the Irish texts, a broad phonological transcription of each phoneme is given and a description of each of its allophones.

I would recommend to anyone with a reasonable knowledge of Irish to read and study at least one of the monographs. You will learn a great deal about the sounds of the dialect in question. As with all areas of study, everything complements everything else. Understanding properly the sound system of the language opens up a whole other dimension of understanding of the language in general and why and how certain words and forms evolved over time. Máirtín Ó Cadhain once commented on the surprising similarity between the dialects in terms of their individual phonemes despite the distances between areas and the fact that the modern Gaeltachtaí are like islands in an English-speaking ocean. There are of course some differences between north and south like the contrast between lenited and unlenited l and n, for example, which is widely used in Connnacht and Ulster but absent from Munster but only because this feature was lost in Munster!

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 870
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

I think Wagner may have used a system more closely linked with that of straight IPA, if I'm not mistaken? I don't have either Gaeilge Theilinn or LASID to hand here at the moment.


Yes, tied to IPA but his own system. He has a complete definition of his symbols in LASID.
quote:

Understanding properly the sound system of the language opens up a whole other dimension of understanding of the language in general and why and how certain words and forms evolved over time.


I agree with this. The stuff given in most learning books is, unfortunately, like 1st grade stuff. In retrospect the failure of some (I think most) of the books to lay down anything more than the real basics hampers the progress of those who don't have a solid speaking teacher. In none of the cases did they recommend that I go to one of the monographs in question, so I was completely ignorant of most of the nuances between the dialects and within them. Some books get close, but until I cracked open a monograph (suspenseful reading I tell you), I didn't GET the whole relationship between the sounds and a clear sense of what was RIGHT about any given pronunciation, not to mention things that are advantageous, like pronunciation variations within dialects and sub-dialects. (And what makes the dialects one language besides being on the same island.) I wracked my brain on vowels, and then realized over time that the consonants need to be spot on, and the vowels, if you're pronouncing right in the right area, will take care of themselves. I mean to say, the vowel quality is dictated a lot by the neighboring consonants which vary very little. Completely higher level of understanding than what was before.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Carmanach
Member
Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 528
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 05:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I couldn't agree with you more, Seán! The monographs can be heavy going for beginners but the effort put in can really pay off. The exciting part is when you hear some of the more interesting features you've studied in the mouths of actual native speakers. Patience as ever is the key. Read a little bit and digest. Read some more and digest. And so on. The online archive at Raidió na Gaeltachta's website is a great resource where you can hear interviews with native speakers from the various Gaeltachtaí.

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Brídmhór
Member
Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 12:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

This is a very handy site.

http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html


And as it only gives the symbols that are used in Irish it's easier to pick out the ones you need.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10616
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 08:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Le Lughaidh s'againne an suíomh sin.



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