Tráthnóna maith agat,

I have recently purchased the Irish version of Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone, translated by Máire Nic Mhaoláin. The plan was to improve my vocabulary and grammar by translating it into my native English. I should say that my Irish isn't great and I am a beginner (I only know some phrases and some basic grammar).

I knew this would be an ambitious task, however, I have reasonably good Russian by translating Crime and Punishment with only a basic understanding of Russian to start with.

The plan was to sit there with my dictionary and grammar rules...

However, Irish is proving rather more difficult than Russian or Latin (did A-level Latin and translated Virgil's Aeneid in the process). I've gotten stuck on the title!

The word "Órchloch" presumably translates to "Philosophers stone"? This isn't in my dictionary, and I'm not surprised. I know "loch" can be added as a suffix to words to mean a stone. My dictionary cites; "bunchloch" to mean "foundation stone". The word "Órch" isn't in there...

I know the word "dorchaigh" means "to darken", which is close...but what does "Órch" mean?

In my dictionary the translation for "philosophy" (nothing for philosopher in there) is "fealsúnacht".

I'm rather confused...

A second moment of confusion arose when I looked at the first sentence...which I know in English to open up with "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley of number four Privet Drive..."

The Irish version reads; "Bhí cónaí ar mhuintir Dursley in uimhir a ceathair Privet Drive". I thought the words for mister and missus were; "An tUasal" and "Bean", which I can't see anywhere in the sentence...

If someone could clear this up I'd be most appreciative! Currently wondering why I didn't try to learn Spanish instead...

Go raibh maith agat!

(Message edited by Sam2000 on November 04, 2010)

órchloch from ór (gold) and cloch (stone).

"ór-chloch: the philosopher's stone that turns things into gold" (Dinneen)

and "muintir" is "family" .. don't mind the H for now!

eadaoin

quote:

agat

I assume you are addressing us all. In that case, use agaibh.

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The Irish version reads; "Bhí cónaí ar mhuintir Dursley in uimhir a ceathair Privet Drive". I thought the words for mister and missus were; "An tUasal" and "Bean", which I can't see anywhere in the sentence...

Muintir means people, or family. In this case she decided to translate by saying essentially "The Dursleys lived ...". As I am sure you know from translating, you can have slavishly literal translations and you can have word-equivalent translations, etc. etc. You'll learn her style. Since you are going from Irish to English, I would put the original out of your head. Just take the Irish as though it was the original, and see what she says. I wonder what happens to Harry?

Thank you for your help!

With the word; "Órchloch", would you, as native-Irish speakers instinctively know that that meant something equivalent to "philosophers stone"? As it's a slightly abstract word which I guess isn't used very regularly...a literal translation would be "gold stone", which I am confused as to how you get from that to "philosophers stone", other than the fact it supposedly turns other metals into gold.

Also, Seánw, can I just ask, would the English equivalent of your username be John W?

Give it a year and I'll have finished, that's the goal I've set myself. I'm going to Ireland this summer for a month to stay with relatives and going to book myself in for a language course, which I'm hoping will help with the grammar in particular.

Finally, can I just ask, what dialect is the translation in? One thing I'm finding really irksome about learning Irish is that nothing ever seems to be in a static dialect, various websites use different dialects interchangeably, apparently the Rosetta Stone software does as well (which I've not used). I've learnt a variety of words off different websites so I've learnt a bit of a strange mix of dialects, which my Irish friend says I sound like the English equivalent of a fusion of a Texan, Glaswegian and Liverpudlian...which I don't like the idea of (!).

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With the word; "Órchloch", would you, as native-Irish speakers instinctively know that that meant something equivalent to "philosophers stone"? As it's a slightly abstract word which I guess isn't used very regularly...a literal translation would be "gold stone", which I am confused as to how you get from that to "philosophers stone", other than the fact it supposedly turns other metals into gold.

Keep in mind that the "philosopher's stone" is simply one particular unique thing. It is not a stone of a philosopher. So the Irish word behind this object could be approached from a different perspective. Think of the nature of the object. You can't be literal about this one, because it is literally a legendary thing. Have you seen one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone#Names

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Also, Seánw, can I just ask, would the English equivalent of your username be John W?

Well my birth name is Seán, but the English equivalent is John. So John W, I guess.

As for dialect, the translation's spelling is probably standardized to reach the widest number of readers. There is probably dialectical influence, but I couldn't imagine her emphasizing this because of the nature of the work.

I remember there was a place in it where the evil Dursleys were trying to hammer in some boards to close up Harry's door and they were using a chunk of 'fruitcake'; this after they accused Harry of being a bit daft in the head..:)
It's going back a while now but I remember thinking at the time that whatever Irish translation of fruitcake had been used it lost the directness of the English.. just a small complaint though, it was a good translation and it's not the kind of book where you lose much in the translation anyway.

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[Órchloch] isn't in my dictionary, and I'm not surprised.

If you have the means, pick up a copy of Ó Dónaill. Órchloch is in there, and most if not all of what you need to translate.

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=4655

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=255

As an interesting aside: This book is called "and the Sorcerors Stone" in the US, is it not?

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Well my birth name is Seán, but the English equivalent is John. So John W, I guess.

We sailed on the sloop John W, .....

quote:

"J. K.Rowling said: Arthur Levine, my American editor, and I decided that words should be altered only where we felt they would be incomprehensible, even in context, to an American reader... The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that the British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. In England, we discussed several alternative titles and Sorcerer's Stone was my idea."
Basically, Rowling and her editor wanted Americans to see that the book is about magic, and Sorcerer's sounds better than Philosopher's.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_JK_Rowling_change_the_name_of_%27Harry_Potter_ and_the_Philosopher%27s_Stone%27_when_it_was_released_in_the_US

I assume that this is correct. I would imagine that most people would not know what a philosopher's stone would be, and would be turned off by the word philosopher. Maybe we aren't given enough credit over here, but I think that it would have been less popular among youth with the original name. Sorcerery sounds fun, philosophy sound dull, so it goes!

Well, if you cannot be expected to understand the Philosopher's stone; what are you to make of "Deathly Hallows"? (OR has Potter become so entrenched that quaint English is no longer an obstacle?)

I'm not the editor. I say leave them as they are for both sides of the Atlantic. By the way, she was/is hugely popular. The kids came out en masse to read those huge tomes (for wee ones). I would say a complete revolution in the reading habits of the American youth.

Here too.

I think after the first book was a success, the editors were daunted. The doubling in size of each sequential volume was not necessarily consistent with a doubling of material....(Having read them as a dutiful parent)

Máire has her work cut out for her, then!

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I have recently purchased the Irish version of Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone, translated by Máire Nic Mhaoláin. The plan was to improve my vocabulary and grammar by translating it into my native English. I should say that my Irish isn't great and I am a beginner (I only know some phrases and some basic grammar).

This is an interesting way to learn a language. I have a few questions about it.

First off, you actually will take a 200 page novel and just translate every sentence word by word? I guess after that much translating you start to pick up on patterns for grammar and sentence structure and learn vocab after you look up a word so often.

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I knew this would be an ambitious task, however, I have reasonably good Russian by translating Crime and Punishment with only a basic understanding of Russian to start with.

You feel a lot more confident reading Russian after translating the book? I'm interested in hearing more about your past experiences with doing this

Paploo,
To interject, I have used a similar method. It has especially helped me since I am all by myself with my only contact with Irish speakers through the Internet. My method, if you care, is:

Read a sentence. Ask the question, do I understand this? If I don't then I parse the sentence. I also note in my dictionary usage like idiomatic phrases, and word choice when there are multiple words available for one concept (for instance, tábla for table while there are other words for this). I then move on to the next one. This might sound tedious, but by the time your through a bit you've covered a lot of language because the basics of a sentence are made of very common words. And the understanding increases so that I can more often just read without resorting to English, and not having to stop and look up things and take notes. I personally recommend this method for people who are cut off from Irish speakers in most ways. I devised this method for myself from Panu Höglund, who has attained a very high level of Irish in a similar way. I recommend learning from a native speaker first, but if you don't have any near-by, do recommend this as one method of improving your reading skills, and grammatical and lexical knowledge. Try reading out loud too. Hope it helps.

I take a class through DnG but its a beginner's class and is slow moving and not really all that challenging. I will continue to go because I don't know of any native speakers in the area that I can talk to so it's nice to at least be able to practice speaking with other people learning the language.

I have a small collection of books written in Irish that I've found at bookstores and online. Mostly they just sit on my bookshelf because when I pick one up I find that I end up having to look up a lot of words in the dictionary but maybe I should really just sit down and do like you explained and go sentence by sentence until I have finished the book.

You've got to start somewhere. Start with the kid's books. That's what I did. Tá Mici ag ól báinne agus ag ithe briosca ...

A Aonghuis ,I feel your pain.After the one with the Ford anglia - cant remember the title - she went over the top and no editor had the clout to stop her!

I read them all to my kids up to
the Goblet of Fire.Thankfully they took over themselves after.I always thought Lia Fáil would be a good title for the first one.I am currently struggling through An tUlchabhán a raibh eagla air roimh an dorchadas.The Owl who was afraid of the Dark.God only knows how many times I read it or played the tape.Anna Mhic Laifeartaigh a chuir in nGaeilge.But tis Gaoith Dobhar Gaeilge.Still,what harm.

Rinne mé an rud céanna le Spáinis - it doesn't help my spoken Spanish, but it's done wonders for vocab, and I've got a feel for how the grammar works (now to learn it!).

I didn't translate, just read. I started with a translation of Paulo Coelo (sp?) - it took a week to read the first 3 pages, but eventually I could do 30 pages a day.I've gone through about 6-8 books.

As SeanW says,read out loud!

eadaoin