Hi people! I'm new here, I registered but It seems I'm still not accepted. I'm trying to learn irish via online, noone teaches it in my country (by the way I'm from Uruguay)and I have a big problem with the plural and singular nouns. I've read that there's no rule to turn a singular noun into a plural, so, I was hoping to find some kind of list or something full of nouns... anyone knows something about that?

It would be of great help, I'm freaking out!

Thank you in advance!

Hola!

Yes, there are rules but they don't cover every single noun. There are a lot of exceptions. The main rules are outlined in Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí. See sections 11.11 to 11.17. Here is a link to an online version if you don't have your own copy: http://ec.europa.eu/translation/irish/documents/christian_brothers_comprehensive _irish_grammar_ga.pdf

Anyway, have a look at dictionaries, they always give the plural of the nouns...

Sorry! I'm such a klutz! I directed Alexia to the sections on ADJECTIVES in GGBC. I should've directed her to Caibidil 8 in the link I gave above. This will give you the main rules. Don't get bogged down in the long lists of examples they give, just try and bear in mind the main outlines of each rule.

Lughaidh's suggestion of course is the one you will normally go for. Try and get your hands on Niall Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge - Béarla which will tell you what forms nouns take in the plural.

There is the Irish Nouns book, which has all the rules laid out and a list of many nouns declined according to the Standard. The rules are not the traditional rules, but there is a key to match up the new rules to the old one. Some find this method more helpful than the traditional ones. There are also notes on dialectical variations.

Here is a link with a synopsis of the rules:

http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~carnie/publications/PDF/QuickRefSheet.pdf

Irish nouns: a reference guide
by Andrew Carnie
ISBN: 9780199213757
Oxford University Press

(For the plurals in Ulster Irish, you can also use Tobar na Gaedhilge http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/ )

Yes, the rules in the dictionaries and in GGBC are for An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, or the Official Standard used in legislation, official and formal documents and in newspapers. The CO is intended as a written standard only there being no spoken standard for Irish. If you're interested in the rules for the dialects, Lughaidh has pointed out where you can get info on Ulster Irish above. For Galway Irish (in Connachta) you can consult Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: An Deilbhíocht and for Corca Dhuibhne in Co Kerry in Munster, see Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne by Diarmuid Ó Sé though I don't think these are freely available on line.

I am guessing from the question that Alex is not ready for the amount of Information given here. As a learner for the last three years, can I say to you Alex that you need to know that there are lots of variations.

The best place to start is probably 4th declension plurals (old system). Carney's book referred to above is very good, but is only worth buying once you have a bit of understanding about declensions, genitives etc.

If I were you I would google "Irish 4th declension" and read the various materials available. Wikipedia is quite good on Irish grammar also.

Daithí

I would advise anyone using online sources to tread carefully. There is a lot of inaccurate information about Irish on the internet. Anything read on Wikipedia needs to taken with a pinch of salt. The two main texts in use are An Caighdeán Oifgiúil and Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, both having Standard forms. If you stick with these, you won't go wrong. You'll find links to both texts on line.

Lads, are ye mad. Both the Caighdeán and The Christian Brothers grammar are in Irish.

Wikipedia is fine for the 4th declension. You really don't know what it is like to be a learner.Baby steps.

DuineEile

Wikipedia is actually pretty good. Whoever put in the work, put in a good deal of work. The next step is to get New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers. I supplemented this with Teach Yourself Irish Grammar by Eamonn O'Donaill. They both are reliable for standard grammar and provide some dialectical information. After that, I am afraid you have to get into the Irish language material. Depending on the dialect, you may find some English language dialectical stuff. But my opinion is if you're going to write in a dialect, you need something in Irish. There just isn't enough in English, except perhaps Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail. And, of course, it helps you read Irish better.

quote:

dialectical stuff

"dialectal" stuff :-) (dialectical means something else).

quote:

You really don't know what it is like to be a learner.

Maybe they've forgotten! Everybody on this forum is a learner or was a learner, except 2 or 3 native speakers... :-)
I'd trust grammar books and dialectal studies more than Wikipedia too. Anybody can write on Wikipedia. In certain articles concerning Irish, I saw mistakes.

quote:

"dialectal" stuff :-) (dialectical means something else).

You're partially right. That is the main meaning, but dialectical for dialectal is acceptable, and the only word I've ever used. I have never used the word "dialectal" for things relating to dialect. Maybe it is my California dialect! Thanks for the note, though. I wasn't talking about Marx or Hegel!

Aye, I guess it's your California dialect, because in the dictionaries I've consulted, I saw that "dialectal" is the usual (standard) word, and that "dialectical" means something else (in standard English). That's what I found in the Online Oxford Dictionary :

------------------------------

dialectical (dia¦lect|ic¦al)
Pronunciation:/dʌɪəˈlɛktɪk(ə)l/
adjective
*
1 relating to the logical discussion of ideas and opinions:dialectical ingenuity
*
2 concerned with or acting through opposing forces:a dialectical opposition between social convention and individual libertarianism


--------------

dialect (dia|lect)
Pronunciation:/ˈdʌɪəlɛkt/
noun

*
a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group:the Lancashire dialect seemed like a foreign language
*
Computing : a particular version of a programming language

Derivatives

dialectal
Pronunciation:/-ˈlɛkt(ə)l/
adjective
dialectally
adverb

Origin:

mid 16th century (denoting the art of investigating the truth of opinions): from French dialecte, or via Latin from Greek dialektos 'discourse, way of speaking', from dialegesthai 'converse with' (see dialogue)
Grammar

A version of a language spoken in a particular geographical area or by a particular group of people. The English spoken in Newcastle is different from that spoken by natives of North Cornwall. Not only do speakers in these two areas have a different accent, they also use a number of different words. Different dialects also use slightly different grammar, too. For example, in Devon some people say ‘They do have …’ in preference to ‘They have …’ Such regional expressions are not ‘wrong’, they simply differ from standard English. They are sometime described as ‘non-standard’.

-------------------

(Btw the difference is the same as in French between dialectique and dialectal).
Anyway.

I would imagine that would be the case. I don't think that form would be taught to anyone, and I couldn't tell you where I got it from, like most of my speaking, but there it is. Dialectal sounds funny to me, like a name of a dinosaur. A good lesson on how people sometimes just can't go over to a standard form, or to a form from a different dialect. I'm sure we can find forms in Ulster which double up suffixes and the like.

Here are the quotes from the big Oxford:

1750 HODGES Job Prel. Disc. (T.) At that time the Hebrew and Arabick language was the same, with a small dialectical variation only.

1847 HALLIWELL Dict. Pref. (1878) 7 Separating mere dialectical forms.

1861 MAX MÜLLER Sc. Lang. v. 199 A language, not yet Sanskrit or Greek or German, but containing the dialectical germs of all.

Lughaidh,

Seánw is not speaking "California dialect" when he uses the word dialectical as an adjective relating to dialects. Generally speaking, dialects have different words for more common items, and not for linguistic matters. It would be the same in Irish, the more technical vocabulary would be the same in all the dialects.

Dialectical is therefore not some special California dialectal form. It is just an accepted variant. I expect Californian academics use "dialectal" in their theses, as this is the usual academic terminology. But even if Oxford Dictionary online only mentions the word as an adjective relating to dialectics, the meaning "pertaining to dialects" is a subsidiary meaning in the larger dictionaries, and I am sure the full 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary does list it. As Seánw says, the word dialectal does sound and feel odd - it sounds kind of "medical" to me. Also it seems kind of usually formed, as forms in -ical are more normal than forms in just -al. Ordinary people who are not writing in academia might be more likely to use dialectical for that reason.

As far as I know or feel it, when you say the word "matters" as in "all matters dialectical", you would be more likely than otherwise to have dialectical than dialectal. What is the reason? I can't say precisely, but "all matters" often seems to be followed by the longer adjectives. You could find "all matters economical" (=economic) as well as "all matters economic". For some reason an adjective in -ical sounds grander, and when you are talking about "all matters X" it sounds like you are waxing lyrical or pontificating on some subject, and so the adjective in -ical sounds slightly jocular, as if you are underlining the fact by not using the normal academic terminology that you are not really taking yourself too seriously despite the fact you are talking about matters high-faluting! But it is a stylistic matter, and "all matters dialectal" or "all matters economic" are correct too. "All matters nationalistical" would be another semijocular formation - I am not aware that the word nationalistical exists in dictionaries, but you could make it up on the fly to produce the semi-self-deprecating tone I mentioned: "that so-and-so over there, he is so free with his opinions on everything -- just try not to get him going on certain subjects, especially all matters nationalistical!"

The whole issue of how to form adjectives is interesting. The UKIP party in the UK claims to be "nationist" and not "nationalist", ie pro-nation without being nationalistic. Another interesting thing is oriented - I insist on oriented as the correct word, but many/most English speakers say orientated. I don't think it is dialectal as such, but more a difference between those used to the terminology frequently used by professional writers and those who aren't.

(Message edited by corkirish on October 30, 2010)

(Message edited by corkirish on October 30, 2010)

Alexia & DuineEile, you might find help with the singular and plural of nouns in Irish here:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

Lars Braesicke gives a good introduction to Irish Grammar there.

I haven't looked at An Foclóir Beag in a while but I'm sure if you click on a word there you will get all the forms listed.

As you will have realised from the many contributors to this Forum Irish varies from place to place and it was only in the last sixty years that a new dialect -- An Caighdeán Oifigiúil / The Official Standard -- was devised for use in official documents and school texts. Most of us who read and write Irish use the CO and in my view it is a very acceptable compromise between the many and varied forms used in the various areas where Irish is still spoken. For spoken Irish however you need to listen to native speakers and imitate one or other of the dialects.

Incidentally I listened to a song contest from the Oireachtas on Raidio na Gaeltachta last night where sixteen competitors vied for the prize. Sadly I was not impressed. Many of the competitors showed little awareness of "r-caol" (slender r). The English "r" predominated. Some gave me the feeling that they did not understand the words they sang. Nevertheless all praise to them. They turned up, took part, sang their hearts out, and alerted the audience to the existence of some other wonderful folk songs in the Irish language tradition.

This is the address of An Foclóir Beag:

http://www.csis.ul.ie/scripts/focweb/Exe/focloir.exe

Singular - uatha
Plural - iolra

Question for other daltaí: are there Irish to English dictionaries online? Are they any good? Where are they?

Is there a "chat" facility anywhere where Irish speakers could exchange pleasantries through the medium?

http://www.potafocal.com

Tá nascanna uaidh sin chuig foclóirí eile, féach thíos ar bun.

As Aonghus said, potafocal is a good site, a very wonderful database linked to examples from a corpus of modern Irish.

Dinneen's dictionary can be searched at http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/index.php?find_simple=Irish

As for Irish pleasantries through the medium, there are some forum posters here who are on Facebook..

quote:

Seánw is not speaking "California dialect" when he uses the word dialectical as an adjective relating to dialects.

I was just kidding when I said it was part of my dialect. I am sure I didn't hear the word until I was in college. Maybe a teacher or teachers used it, or my colleagues, and it stuck. Then again it could be part of the dialect, the idea of putting -ical on nouns like that. but I would have no idea, and I don't think it is.

"As for Irish pleasantries through the medium, there are some forum posters here who are on Facebook.."


- Including yourself :)
I have a few from this forum and a lot of the regulars from IGT on my facebook list. We chat in Irish, English, French, Welsh...

I don't know of any particular social networking site that's specifically for Irish.

craicbook is where its at

Pusleabhar.com

quote:

Incidentally I listened to a song contest from the Oireachtas on Raidio na Gaeltachta last night where sixteen competitors vied for the prize. Sadly I was not impressed. Many of the competitors showed little awareness of "r-caol" (slender r). The English "r" predominated. Some gave me the feeling that they did not understand the words they sang. Nevertheless all praise to them. They turned up, took part, sang their hearts out, and alerted the audience to the existence of some other wonderful folk songs in the Irish language tradition.

That's a common complaint unfortunately. I've noted the same sort of thing this year and in previous years. But are you referring to Gaeltacht singers or those from elsewhere? The case is certainly true for those from the weaker Gaeltacht areas but much less so for someone from Leitir Móir, say. I've always said that one could have a very fine voice and still make a hash of the pronunciation. That is especially so for learners trying to sing sean-nós songs. Clearly there are some who can do both quite well, Antaine Ó Faracháin for example. At the other end of the spectrum, I have a recording of Karen Casey singing Sliabh Geal gCua na Féile. It's a painful experience to say the least. She makes all of the typical pronunciation errors of the native Anglophone. She hasn't got a bad voice at all but her woeful pronunciation lets here down badly.

I would agree though that it's good to see people singing and long may it continue but I personally can't see the point of singing in seana-nós if you can't pronounce the words properly!

Carmanach, I am back from China, but with the flu, so not able to address the Irish language much right now. But what gets me is the various recordings of Amhrán na bhFiann - I don't know why people would sing it in Irish and not get it right! The recordings on youtube are simply dreadful. See for an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLmlTWHjhl4 - why doesn't this creep just move to London and be done with it???

Maybe we could ask Bríd Mhór here to record it and upload to youtube ;-)

David,
As I have said many many times on this forum, it basically comes down to the fallacy that since we are all Irish people, and that Irish is supposedly the native language of Ireland and belongs to everyone in Ireland that therefore means that all possible pronunciations of Irish by people born in Ireland are all equally valid and that anyone who says otherwise is a bigot and a fanatic of the highest order. There are supposedly around one million individuals who can splutter out a few broken phrases in a thick Anglophone accent but only about twenty thousand native speakers who use the language daily, and so therefore, the native Anglophone Gaeilgeoirí must be given priority over the native speaker. Anyone who claims otherwise should be locked away in a dark room somewhere until they come to their senses.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried about national anthems, of any country. Most national anthems are drivel.

Carmanach, I always wait for the bit that says: buíon dár slua. it is normally pronounced: win dah sloo.

You've heard the version used in some parts of Dublin's inner city? There the national anthem ends with "Shoving Connie around the Green".

"Maybe we could ask Bríd Mhór here to record it and upload to youtube"

-- if only I could sing. Faraor.

But... http://www.box.net/shared/hzplgylo4y

Thou art modest. You have a nice quality to your voice. I bet you can belt it out, maybe after a drink or two.

Thank you Seán.

Carmanach,

quote:

There are supposedly around one million individuals who can splutter out a few broken phrases in a thick Anglophone accent but only about twenty thousand native speakers who use the language daily, and so therefore, the native Anglophone Gaeilgeoirí must be given priority over the native speaker.

What a poor opinion you have of those of us who learn Irish. How are we to satisfy you that we know our broad and slender consonants, our diphthongs and our elision? Wasn't I lucky long ago not to have had you as my oral Irish examiner. I had Máirtín Ó Cadhain, Prof of Irish in Trinity. He was civil and helpful .

If I were a learner of Irish and came to this forum looking for help and read your remarks I would be most discouraged from even attempting to learn the language. If a million people have failed what chance have I.

What of those wishing to use the little Irish they know? If your attitude were widespread people would discard the language instantly rather than subject themselves to your scathing hostility. Why not encourage people instead of ... Oh. What's the point. Bheadh sé chomh maith agam bheith ag gabháil de ribe ar iarann fuar.

As for spluttering out a few broken phrases -- would it not show a bit of respect for your readers here to use conventional spelling in your own posts? People unfamiliar with the language will be put off by such variations from the norm.

Are you implying there is no such thing as "correct spelling" in Irish? Only "correct pronunciation"?

Ardfhear, a Thaidhgín.

quote:

What a poor opinion you have of those of us who learn Irish

That's funny. I always thought I was a learner of Irish myself. So I clearly have some self-hate issues that need sorting . . .

quote:

Wasn't I lucky long ago not to have had you as my oral Irish examiner. I had Máirtín Ó Cadhain, Prof of Irish in Trinity. He was civil and helpful .

Well, I've taught Irish courses to learners in four Irish language organisations and three third level institutions. I've never received a single complaint from anyone. Some of my ex-students are still in contact with me on a regular basis with questions and queries. I try to help them as best I can. When I don't have an answer, I am honest and upfront. I tell them I don't know but will do my best to find out. I also try to be honest about the language situation in Ireland and tell people the facts rather than covering them in the sort of politically correct cotton wool which seems to be your philosophy.

quote:

If I were a learner of Irish and came to this forum looking for help and read your remarks I would be most discouraged from even attempting to learn the language.

You really don't get it, do you? My beef is not with learners as such but with the notion that the pidgin spoken by learners is somehow every bit as valid and authentic and acceptable as the spoken Irish of good speakers in the core Gaeltacht speakers. There seems to be a very clear agenda by certain individuals in the language movement that the problem of Irish is the language itself. Irish is too "hard", we're told and needs to be dumbed down at every opportunity. The fact that generation upon generation of Gaeltacht speakers seemingly have little problem mastering the language is conveniently ignored. I don't know how many public meetings I've been at over the years where the same idiots stand up and call on whatever Gaeltacht minister is in office to "simplify" the language because it's too "hard" for their pretty little heads. It's as if I went to the Italian government and demanded they chuck out the past subjunctive because it's "hard".

quote:

If a million people have failed what chance have I.

How can you be sure a million people have failed? The way the census question is phrased "speaking Irish" could mean anything. I have relatives who put themselves down as "Irish speakers" when they can barely stutter out "Jeea gwit", "Gurra ma oggit" and "On will kyad oggum quig on lehriss, mawsh ay duh hull ay?".

quote:

What of those wishing to use the little Irish they know? If your attitude were widespread people would discard the language instantly rather than subject themselves to your scathing hostility. Why not encourage people instead of ...

Please see above.

quote:

As for spluttering out a few broken phrases -- would it not show a bit of respect for your readers here to use conventional spelling in your own posts? People unfamiliar with the language will be put off by such variations from the norm.

Sorry there, Dermot, you've lost me, mate. "Conventional spelling", what's that when it's at home in the bed? So anyone who doesn't use standard spelling in posts on an internet forum (an internet forum, Dermot . . .) is, according to you, not showing "respect" to others. It's as if not adhering slavishly to An Caighdeán Oifigiúil at every single conceivable occasion is the equivalent of farting in a restaurant or picking your nose on the bus. Pardon my naivété, but I wasn't aware that we are all on here as part of a collective project to translate South Tipperary County Council: Annual Report and County Development Plan Summary, 2009 or the budget estimates for the Department of Agriculture. Sorry for not adhering to the "norm", Dermot. I'll go off and flagellate myself in penance, so . . .

quote:

Are you implying there is no such thing as "correct spelling" in Irish? Only "correct pronunciation"?

Well, it would be helpful for us all if you could define what exactly you mean by "correct" in "correct spelling"? As for correct pronunciation, yes, there is correct and incorrect pronunciation. I didn't make it up. Native Irish speakers did over countless generations. If you don't like it pop into Tigh Khruger or Tigh Mhaidhceo and rant at them instead of me. I have more important things to be doing with my time.

Carmanach,
I'll be honest, you are an acquired taste. You've got a no-nonsense approach that can come off strong to those who aren't familiar with you. After reading your posts now for a while, I am a bit more used to your approach, but you come on strong, perhaps too strong for some. There's truth, and people who can take it straight up. Then there is packaged truth. Still the truth, but with a package that makes it more inticing to some. You remind me a bit (just in approach) to Larry Winget, The Pitbull of Personal Development, who has such wonderfully titled books and DVDs as:

● Shut Up, Stop Whining, & Get A Life: A Kick-Butt Approach to a Better Life
● It's Called Work For A Reason
● You're Broke Because You Want To Be: How to Stop Getting By and Start Getting Ahead
● People Are Idiots and I Can Prove It!: The Ten Ways You Are Sabotaging Your Life and How To Overcome Them
● Your Kids Are Your Own Fault: A Guide For Raising Responsible, Productive Adults
● Success Is Your Own Damn Fault

Retitle them for Irish, and you may have a strong career move. I do hear that Larry WInget is very successful.

Carmanach,

With regard to the paragraph beginning "You don't get it, do you?" I understand very well the standpoint you are taking but I think you are being unfair. I also think this is not the forum for such criticism.

Just as you think of "farting in a restaurant" or "picking your nose" I find myself thinking of the outrage caused by Mary Ellen Synon some years ago when she ridiculed the athletes of the Special Olympics. She was rightly excoriated for her insensitive remarks. She didn't get it. I think your comments on learners of the Irish language attempting to speak it fall into a similar category.

Your giving vent to native Irish speakers' dislike of learners getting any sort of recognition for their achievement -- often at enormous expense, time and money -- not to mention the gift of a particular intelligence that enables them to learn a second or third language -- is inappropriate here.

Other Irish language fora may be frivolous and silly. Daltai used to be serious and aware of its purpose: to help learners and promote the language.

Everyone can criticise others for their use of language -- even in the mother tongue siblings will find fault with each other's speech -- my point here is that this forum was -- generally is -- a serious but friendly place where learners can ask questions and receive informed answers without being mocked.

The best and most highly educated of native speakers were involved in the project to standardise Irish.. On the other hand the best and least educated of native speakers are currently involved in the abandonment of Irish. Anyone with knowledge of the Gaeltacht knows that the shift to English continues unabated. The wealthy BAs, NTs, MScs, and PhDs living in the Gaeltacht can afford to speak Irish to their children but the poor are still struggling to learn English. Indeed they are still smiled at if they fail.

At the height of the Recess school boycott I visited the area and heard "Ara! Who speaks Irish anyway but a few auld bachelors up in those hills there!"

Why turn on the learners? Why resent the million learners who know "some Irish" - many are extraordinarily fluent -- but who is there to tell them? To give them approval? To praise them?

If the native speakers have a sullen dislike of learners -- unless they are guests paying rent to a landlady or students paying fees to teachers -- and if other Irish speakers pour scorn on them because they don't speak like Mikey Wikey from Bun an Chnoic what hope is there for Irish. Where is the satisfaction in learning it. What is the objective? Why bother?

I am thinking now of two brothers from Donegal - both writers - Seosamh Mac Grianna and his brother Séamus Ó Grianna. (Sic!) Sadly from the point of view of the (non-existent) idealised Irish-speaking world these two lost contact with their readers. Séamus let himself be rolled out as an opponent of "compulsory" Irish during the "Let the Language Live" campaign of the late '60s and early '70s and earned himself considerable opprobrium among Irish speakers as a result. Seosamh spent much of his life in hospital.

The Irish language revival originated in the romantic dilettantism (?) of the Anglo-Irish only to be seized upon as the national symbol par excellence by the national independence movement. The new Irish state introduced it into the school curriculum and succeeded in establishing it as a second language throughout the country. Appproximately one third of each year's cohort of students do very well in learning it. The media concentrate on the failures and no-shows but the reality is that an extraordinary cultural project has been undertaken in Ireland and sustained despite hostility, ignorance, and lethargy. I hope it survives the current slump.

Despite its origins the Irish language has passed from the few remaining native speakers to their children who have been reared as English speakers and know Irish as a second language. That's how it is now. Most -- I say most -- of the million aquired their Irish because there had been Irish among their forebears in previous generations. Like it or not we are the Gaeltacht now.

Maybe we can just reiterate what Aonghus posted on the other post, with my emphasis:

quote:

Tá a fhios againn go ginearálta go bhfuil tromlach na ndaoine, idir dhaoine a labhraíonn agus nach labhraíonn Gaeilge, dearfach i leith na teanga. Tá orainn timpeallacht a chruthú a spreagann daoine agus a thugann muinín dóibh a gcuid Gaeilge a úsáid, pé leibhéal atá acu. Tá sé riachtanach go n-úsáidfeadh daoine le Gaeilge an teanga nuair atá an deis acu agus tá sé riachtanach go ndéanfadh daoine í a cur ar aghaidh chuig a bpáistí.

I think what's in the back of some people's mind here is probably the bigger picture as in when the inevitable time comes and there is no-one speaking Irish in the Gaeltacht and practically all speakers are caighdeán learners who have made no effort to get the snas agus blas- except for the few who will at all costs. I think though it's clear that even now we are all of us in the minority here so I can see no way this is ever going to change.

Taighgín, I am not getting involved here, but I do have to say that your likening someone's stance on learners of Irish to comments someone made about the Special Olympics is just completely bizarre!

Bríd, I have just listened to your MP3. It is truly wonderful! And of course your pronunciation is totally different to the Anglophone versions around...

quote:

How are we to satisfy you that we know our broad and slender consonants, our diphthongs and our elision?

Taidhgín, the truth is that as a learner, even as a fluent learner, you don't have to get the pronunciation exactly right. You're not necessarily expected to be perfect. But: the gold standard is the Irish of the native speakers who do get things perfect.

As for Ailín being a teacher/examiner, I should only consider myself lucky had I attended any of his classes. And reading his posts on Daltaí is the next best thing!

quote:

● Shut Up, Stop Whining, & Get A Life: A Kick-Butt Approach to a Better Life
● It's Called Work For A Reason
● You're Broke Because You Want To Be: How to Stop Getting By and Start Getting Ahead
● People Are Idiots and I Can Prove It!: The Ten Ways You Are Sabotaging Your Life and How To Overcome Them
● Your Kids Are Your Own Fault: A Guide For Raising Responsible, Productive Adults
● Success Is Your Own Damn Fault

Seánw, these are very American in feel.

quote:

Séamus let himself be rolled out as an opponent of "compulsory" Irish during the "Let the Language Live" campaign of the late '60s and early '70s and earned himself considerable opprobrium among Irish speakers as a result.

I don't personally know if Séamus Ó Grianna earned the "considerable opprobium" of native speakers in the Gaeltacht through his support for the Language Freedom Movement and opposition to the CO. But I suspect you are talking about opprobium from LEARNERS in the Galltacht, annoyed that he was not falling into line with their ideology. But his views as a native speaker were quite appropriately within the range of views of native speakers seeing an artificial form of the language foisted on the country and then made compulsory in schools. You may not agree, but I think you have to concede he had a point.

He had a point; but he was hijacked by those who, for whatever reason, loathed Irish.

And the effect was to accelerate loss of Irish in the Gaeltacht. Compulsory competence in Irish for civil servants was abandoned, to be replaced by a scheme of "bonus marks" for Irish during hiring and promotion. However, just this week a civil servant, fluent in Irish, has won a high court case because these bonus points were not accorded to her. In fact, the language commissioner has found that these scheme was consistently subverted across manty state departments: with the result, for example, that the department of education which once did almost all its business through Irish now only has 3% of its staff competent to do business in the language.

This means that the principal of a Gaeltacht school, for example, is forced to do much of his/her work through English.

And so on....

Aonghus, quite simply, the Department of Education should be required to operate fully in Irish internally. Those who can't should be sacked and replaced. it may not be feasible to do that for all government departments, but surely they could find enough people just for that one department?

My point was that they were *once* operating in just that fashion; but as a result of the LFM movement they are not, and in fact the Department of Education is a cold house for Irish. I know of several talented people who left the department for just that reason.

I call it "An Roinn Éadóchais" for a reason!

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Seánw, these are very American in feel.

Just having some fun there. That's all. We've got to have some fun, and be willing to receive criticism, even if it is for fun. I willingly include myself in that.

Corkirish, two things:

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the gold standard is the Irish of the native speakers who do get things perfect.

The problem is that there are very few "native speakers" around any more. Most speakers of Irish in the Gaeltacht are bilingual and many of those are English-dominant. Teachers report on how few children come to primary school knowing Irish and how seldom it is heard spoken in the school yard. In thirty years' time these English-dominant bilingual childrend will be parents themselves.

A second point is that not all dialects spoken today are in pristine condition. (Think of the varieties of English spoken by "native" speakers in your area. Substitute another language for English if you live outside the Anglo-American realm.)The southern Irish dialects would have to yield to a dialect like that of Ceathrú Thaidhg in pronunciation. Ceathrú Thaidhg has to be the gold standard for pronunciation. In grammar and richness of verbal forms and inflection the Munster dialects obviously seem to have retained much of the older grammar. On a recent holiday in Inis Meáin I heard nothing but Irish from the locals. Even in a pub on the Cois Fhairge road to Galway the mid-afternoon boozers were speaking Irish when we dropped in for a cuppa -- and to satisfy our curiosity. Fair play to them! For myself I love to read Seanchas an Táilliúra (west Cork) and the Irish of An Rinn (Co Waterford).

Sadly, with the passage of time, the traditional characteristics of all dialects are being lost.

As for Séamus Ó Grianna he lent his support to those in opposition to compulsory Irish. NB not the CO. He may well have been opposed to that also although he worked as a translator for An Gúm if I am not mistaken. He always insisted that his books be published in the Cló Gaelach. A prolific writer very few of his books are still read today: Caisleáin Óir? An Clár is an Fhoireann? Cith is Dealáin? Bean Rua de Dhálach? [+ about 14 others] His poor brother's book, Saol Corrach, seems to be destined to become a classic.

As Aonghus has pointed out above one of the consequences of the abolition of compulsory Irish (i.e. you had to pass Irish to get any Education Certificate from the Irish state) was the loss of a bilingual Civil Service. It has become English only. The attempt to secure status for Irish in the Civil Service had taken about 50 years to achieve and was destroyed in less than ten. The "can't learn it, won't learn it" brigade won out and Irish was silenced and driven out of each office where once it was used with pride and imagination. English was back with a vengeance.

When I was a youngster I bought my Cathal Ó Sandair books from Oifig Dhíolta Foilseacháin an Rialtais, An Stuara, Ard-Oifig an Phoist, Sráid Anraí, Baile Átha Cliath 1. They cost about 1s 3d each. Everyone in that office spoke Irish including many of the customers. And I mean by "spoke Irish" you could hear them! They spoke it among themselves and they addressed the customers in Irish. It was like a visit to the Gaeltacht.

That office still exists in Molesworth Street. Try and make yourself understood through Irish there now.

Many of my generation worked in the Civil Service during the 50s and 60s. You had to pass an exam in Irish every few years to show you were making progress and you needed good Irish to get promotion. Most Civil Servants were bilingual. Think of the greats like Noel Dorr and T.K.Whitaker. Incidentally Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh was an honoured past-pupil of one of the Coláistí Ullmhúcháin another support for the Irish language that was abolished in the early 60s.

Ach is leor sin. Fágaimis ina chodladh é mar ábhar. Bímis séimh síochánta le chéile. Suaimhneas.

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That office still exists in Molesworth Street. Try and make yourself understood through Irish there now.

The office exists; but they no longer sell books by An Gúm.

I was in there once or twice when they still did, (in the 1990's) and sometimes they were able to find the unoffical Irish speaker for me.

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His poor brother's book, Saol Corrach, seems to be destined to become a classic.

Séamus a scríobh an dírbheathaisnéis sin. An é an Druma Mór a bhí i gceist agat?

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghuis. My memory is failing. I have just googled Seosamh and realise it was "Mo Bhealach Féin" I had in mind. However in addition to clarifying who wrote what I discovered that Seosamh Mac Grianna had written far more than I ever knew. Here's the entry (It doesn't have anything to do with "Nouns in the plural" but I think it may be of interest):

Seosamh Mac Grianna
Seosamh Mac Grianna was born in Rannafast, Co. Donegal in 1901.
His brother Séamus Ó Grianna was also a notable writer. Like his brother who was also a teacher, he was interned during the Civil War as a Republican. At least in part due to his disillusion with the new Ireland, he spent the last 30 years of his life in Saint Connall's, the mental hospital in Letterkenny, Co Donegal.
His works include Dochartach Dhuiblionna agus Scéalta Eile (Baile Átha Cliath, Cú Uladh, 1925); Filí gan Iomrá (Baile Átha Cliath, Oifig an tSoláthair, 1926); An Grá agus an Ghruaim (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1929); Eoghan Ruadh Ó Néill (Oifig an tSoláthair,1931); An Bhreatain Bheag (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1933); Pádraic Ó Conaire agus Aistí Eile (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1936); Na Lochlannaigh (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1938); Mo Bhealach Féin (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1940); Dá mBíodh Ruball ar an Éan (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1940); An Druma Mór (Oifig an tSoláthair, 1969); and Filí agus Felons ([Nollaig Mac Congáil, eagathóir] Baile Átha Cliath, 1987).
A documentary on his life, Dá mBíodh Ruball ar an Éan, was made by BBC Northern Ireland in 1991.
He died in 1990.

Mo Bhealach Féin, gan amhras. An Fhírinne Garbh.

Is clasaiceach é an Druma Mór, i mo thuairim.

Ní raibh mé in ann mórán sásaimh a bhaint as "Dá mBíodh Ruball ar an Éan"

Tá a aistriúchán ar The Nigger of the Narcissus léite agam freisin

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2010/08/ciardhubhan-conallach.html

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The "can't learn it, won't learn it" brigade won out and Irish was silenced and driven out of each office where once it was used with pride and imagination. English was back with a vengeance.

The road to Irish is narrow and somewhat steep, while the road to English is wide and very steep. It is an accident of history that you happen to live next to and be ruled under the language that would become the world lingua franca. That can't be changed. I think the problem with Irish is not the external conditions now, but the internal. There is too much externally in support of it to make that claim now. I think Irish has way more support for it than any language in my neighborhood, and yet they survive and thrive -- Spanish, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. They will go away eventually for sure because there is no support outside of love of their culture. There is nobody calling for them to keep their language. There is just accommodation. Irish has it better, I think. People can say that the state has done them wrong, and there is truth to that, but the amount of state support completely floored me when I first realized it. How many programs and shows and signs etc. have to scream out, learn Irish and pass it on?! We have to look at ourselves and ask if we are truly passing on this cultural gift to the next generation as it was passed on to us. The 20 year strategy says they want 250k daily speakers. I think this is realistic, and realistic while maintaining traditional Irish. So in that case I see the logic of continuing to point to first language speakers as the model. Some of the English natives will have to switch over their families to Irish or bilingual to achieve this.

What does anyone think of the idea that authentic Irish language pronunciation is hampered by the pressure to speak as English as possible (therefore further away from the remnants of their Irish phonology)?

quote{With regard to the paragraph beginning "You don't get it, do you?" I understand very well the standpoint you are taking but I think you are being unfair. I also think this is not the forum for such criticism. }

So no one is permitted to air such criticism here. Who decided on that? You? I wasn’t aware of your recent promotion to site administrator . . .

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Just as you think of "farting in a restaurant" or "picking your nose" I find myself thinking of the outrage caused by Mary Ellen Synon some years ago when she ridiculed the athletes of the Special Olympics. She was rightly excoriated for her insensitive remarks. She didn't get it. I think your comments on learners of the Irish language attempting to speak it fall into a similar category.

I see. So now native Anglophone Irish learners are to be put on a par with persons with learning difficulties and I am to be the Mary Ellen Synon of daltai.com for having the temerity to criticise the mindset that all forms of Irish spoken by the English-speaking middle classes in their leafy suburbs in Dublin and elsewhere are equally as valid and linguistically authentic as that spoken in Carna or Feothanach or Machaire Rabhartaigh. Is there even the smallest chance that this idea in itself is insulting to persons with a mental disability? So should we set up a "Gaeilgeoir Olympics" to help the poor neglected group of souls suffering from their Anglophone linguistic disabilities? THIS IS TAIDHGÍN. HE DOESN'T KNOW A VELARISED CONSONANT FROM HIS ELBOW. PLEASE GIVE WHAT YOU CAN NOW SO THAT TAIGHGÍN AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER TONGUE-TIED GAEILGEOIRÍ CAN ENUNCIATE THEIR VELARISED AND PALATALISED CONSONANTS CORRECTLY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.

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Your giving vent to native Irish speakers' dislike of learners getting any sort of recognition for their achievement -- often at enormous expense, time and money -- not to mention the gift of a particular intelligence that enables them to learn a second or third language -- is inappropriate here.

I praise individuals who genuinely make an effort. That includes most learners of the language who are humble enough to recognise that Irish is not their language and their job is to learn it and learn it properly. However, I know a number of individuals who I’ve been acquainted with for ten years or more and seem to make little or no effort at all to improve their own knowledge of the language. They make the exact same errors that they made when I first met them. Some of these individuals I suspect have learned a minimum of Irish for social reasons rather than genuine educational reasons and they are doing a disservice to the language and setting a very bad example indeed to those who are just starting out. The idea that one doesn’t have to learn the language correctly and to the fullest is ridiculous. Others are only in it for whatever money they can get out of it or so it would seem. The worst group are those who actually wear their woeful command of the language as a badge of honour and see nothing wrong with speaking a completely different language belonging to a completely different language group within the Indo-European language family with English language phonology and intonation.

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Everyone can criticise others for their use of language -- even in the mother tongue siblings will find fault with each other's speech -- my point here is that this forum was -- generally is -- a serious but friendly place where learners can ask questions and receive informed answers without being mocked.

I’m sick and tired of pointing out to you and others on here that a native English speaker criticising the English of another native English speaker because the second speaker is deemed to have failed to adhere to some artificial standard form invented by the wealthy classes and the élite is in no way comparable to criticising the mistakes and errors made by second language learners – mistakes and errors which no native English speakers make, either those speaking a standard or non-standard form of the language. The idea that the standard form of any language is the only “correct” form and that other NATIVE speakers who use non-standard forms are speaking “bad” English, French, German etc. is a dangerous fallacy. The idea that some native speakers from certain socio-economic backgrounds are incapable of speaking their own language is just another way for the élite to sneer at the little people but plus ca change . . . .

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The best and most highly educated of native speakers were involved in the project to standardise Irish.. On the other hand the best and least educated of native speakers are currently involved in the abandonment of Irish. Anyone with knowledge of the Gaeltacht knows that the shift to English continues unabated. The wealthy BAs, NTs, MScs, and PhDs living in the Gaeltacht can afford to speak Irish to their children but the poor are still struggling to learn English. Indeed they are still smiled at if they fail.

I never claimed that the Gaeltacht is some sort of Gaelic paradise inhabited by perfect human beings. There are many Gaeltacht people who couldn’t give a toss about the language. That’s pretty normal in most language communities. I couldn’t give a monkey’s about English, my native language, nor could most of my neighbours and friends. However, there are still people who care and have a passion for the language and it is to those that we should look. There are still enough Gaeltacht people with very fine Irish. Yes, the Gaeltacht is slowly dying away but, what has all that got to do with the sort of Irish native Anglophones should be learning and speaking? How exactly does that change the sort of Irish we should be speaking?

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Why turn on the learners? Why resent the million learners who know "some Irish" - many are extraordinarily fluent -- but who is there to tell them? To give them approval? To praise them?

Of the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of learners I’ve spoken to over the years, only a miniscule number could speak the language with indigenous phonology and intonation. Very very few indeed could speak or write it as easily as English or even better than English. I praise those who make a genuine effort but praise is something that one earns.

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If the native speakers have a sullen dislike of learners -- unless they are guests paying rent to a landlady or students paying fees to teachers -- and if other Irish speakers pour scorn on them because they don't speak like Mikey Wikey from Bun an Chnoic what hope is there for Irish. Where is the satisfaction in learning it. What is the objective? Why bother?

Well, why bother at all if you’re not serious from day one? What’s the point of learning so much and no more? What exactly is the point of speaking Irish with an Anglophone accent? Can you tell me that? That’s what I can’t figure out. Fair enough, there are people who are incapable of pronouncing the language correctly buy why wear that on your lapel as a badge of honour?

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The Irish language revival originated in the romantic dilettantism (?) of the Anglo-Irish only to be seized upon as the national symbol par excellence by the national independence movement. The new Irish state introduced it into the school curriculum and succeeded in establishing it as a second language throughout the country. Appproximately one third of each year's cohort of students do very well in learning it. The media concentrate on the failures and no-shows but the reality is that an extraordinary cultural project has been undertaken in Ireland and sustained despite hostility, ignorance, and lethargy. I hope it survives the current slump.

Irish language revival, you say? How much Irish will I hear in the street while walking to the bus stop this evening? How much Irish will I hear on the bus home? How much Irish will I hear in the pub this evening? One third of students “do very well” in learning the language, you say. How do you define “very well”? The Irish state succeeded in establishing Irish as a second language throughout the state, you say. Really? Where are all these competent and confident second language Irish speakers? The cold reality is that warts and all, the only thing left to the language in modern Ireland are the core Gaeltacht areas and their resident communities. They are the only places left where Irish is not a middle class pastime.

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You remind me a bit (just in approach) to Larry Winget, The Pitbull of Personal Development

Thank you, Seán for sharing your thoughts with me. I was just wondering about Larry Winget. Is he like an American Eddie Hobbs but with less hair and louder shirts? I never realised that if people are poor it's their own fault. Stupid poor people! Stop being poor, I say, stop it!!

Is it Larry Wing-It or Whinge-it, or a bit of both? ;)

He's funny to read, though. And I think my point is proven just a bit by what your wrote above, especially the capitalized part -- Pitbull of Irish Language Education.

Right so, it's off to the barber to have my head shaved and then into Arnott's to get meself a really loud shirt and some shades. I'll work on the pitbull snarl in the mirror tonight . . .

Taidhgín, I think you should not be concerned too much about learners who might get discouraged over Ailín's comments or dialectal spelling. Myself, a learner spending little time on Irish, I enjoy a lot his comments in which he shares expert knowledge as much as his posts in first-class Irish. A conscientious learner should be smart enough to profit from this and not feel disheartened or offended.

Of course, learning a language is nothing diferent from mastering some other skill and it would be stupid enough not to try to get better and this means setting higher standards. As an outsider, I can see that a sloppy attitude towards learning Irish is tolerated and the difficult sociolinguistic situation in Ireland is given as an excuse for that. This is an unhealthy trend and a radical opinion is only justified.

(Message edited by peter on November 05, 2010)