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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (September-October) » Archive through October 18, 2010 » Queries on Niamh « Previous Next »

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 07:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Dear all, I know I ask too many questions. May I abuse your patience with some more? These are all from Niamh by PUL.

1. PUL mentions the word "érdam" for "sacristy", and adds in a note, "níl aon fhocal nua-Ghaelainne againn ar 'érdam' ach 'sacraistí'". This is a little odd. It is as if he thinks there is no modern Irish equivalent of the old Irish word érdam - but the form eardhamh is given in the dictionaries today. Does this mean that eardhamh is a very rare word that is unlikely to be known by many - as PUL didn't know it. Can anyone suggest how to pronounce "eardhamh"?

2. He mentions Conchubhar mac Nessa's Knights of the Red Branch in the Ulster myths. Curaí na Craoibhruaí. But I was a little surprised there was no "e" after the "bh": Craoibheruaí - is it possible the vowel slips out, and it is pronounced (as here in the genitive) /kri:vʹ-ru'i:/?

3. Cuir ansan ar an gclár é - is there any difference between clár and bord for "table"?

4. Bhí an seomra gléasta riartha go hálainn, fé bhordaibh fada - I was confused by "fé", but found one meaning in the dictionaries, "having, possessing". Does this mean "the room was bedecked and arranged beautifully with long tables"?

5. Bhí a lán ndóthain bídh agus dí acu - I would have understood "lán a ndóthain", but "a lán ndóthain"? Is this right? Can lán supervene between "a" and "ndóthain"?

6. Níor ghá do Cholla aon eagla a bheith air go raghadh dá chuid lóin bídh ná dí, pé tarrac a déanfaí orthu - I assume "tarrac orthu" means the food and drink were "drawn on, used", but as far as I know "tarrac astu" is the correct word for this?

7. Bhí an deacon, Amhlaoibh, an Lochlannach óg, ins gach aon chúinne ag freagairt do na manachaibh fé mar a ghlaoidís - glossing over the fact that PUL had no Irish word for deacon (which should be deagánach), "ag freagairt do" normally means "corresponding to". Can it also mean "answering the calls" of someone?

Thanks if anyone has time to proffer any opinions.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 234
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 01:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Well, according to the book I am looking at, bord, clár, and tábla all mean 'table' (no difference).

They are talking about the distribution of Irish words for 'table' - here's what they have to say about clár:
Clár is the oldest word, being an item of Indo-European vocabulary in Irish; it is still universally used in the basic sense of 'plank of wood', 'flat surface'; it also in the Old Irish period acquired a secondary meaning, 'index, programme, register', as a translation of Latin tabula, and is still universally used in that sense; as the normal term for 'table' it is found only in relic areas of the south …

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10410
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 03:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

1. No idea
2. No idea
3. See WFM.
4. Yes.
5. Is Ok parse it as a (lán ndóthain)
6. Tarrac orthu = demand for
7. Yes. (I suspect deagánach is new)

BTW David, I think you ought to try to register again: your messages don't show up in searches until someone sees and answers them.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10417
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

1. I've never come across the word eardhamh. It occurs only 6 times in Nua-Corpas na hÉireann. Then again sacraistí occurs only 34 times.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 879
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Can anyone suggest how to pronounce "eardhamh"?


For Muskerry, I would expect: /arɣav/ > /arəɣav/ (epenthesis) > /aru:v/ (coalescence) > /a'ru:v/ (stress shift). But that's only a guess, and it depends on the popularity of the word. If it was perceived as belonging to a more formal register (as some ecclesiastical vocabulary was), it may not have undergone all the listed changes.

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 476
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

2. He mentions Conchubhar mac Nessa's Knights of the Red Branch in the Ulster myths. Curaí na Craoibhruaí. But I was a little surprised there was no "e" after the "bh": Craoibheruaí - is it possible the vowel slips out, and it is pronounced (as here in the genitive) /kri:vʹ-ru'i:/?


I'm next to positive I read somewhere once that the original term was "craobhruadh" (a compound referring to a particular shade of "ruadh") which later, through error, came to be understood as "na craoibhe ruaidhe".
"The Branch-Red Warriors" - "The Warriors of the Red Branch"

I could be wrong of course.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 10418
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Trí háruis iomorro do bhíodh i n-Eamhain ré linn Chonchubhair mar atá Bróin Bhearg is Craobh Dhearg is Craobh Ruaidh. San chéidteach do bhídís a n-othair, agus is uime sin ráidhtear Bróin Bhearg ria, do bhrígh go mbídís na hothair do bhíodh innte fá bhrón is fá mhéala ó ghoimh na ngon is na ngalar do bhíodh orra innte. An dara teach da ngairthí Craobh Dhearg is ann do bhídís na hairm is na seoid uaisle i gcumhdach; agus is uime sin do cuireadh inchinn Mheisceadhra i dtaiscidh ann mar gach seod uasal oile. An treas teach do bhíodh ag Conchubhar, an Chraobh Ruaidh do gairmthí dhi. Is innte do riarthaoi é féin mar aon ré líon a laochraidhe.



http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100054/ XXXIII



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