I have a general understanding of the main features of Wexford Irish.
I am unsure however about the pronunciation of originally short vowels before -ll, -m, -nn, & -ng.
I know they were altered as in Munster and south Connacht, but how? Was lengthening usual or diphthonisation as in east Munster and Kilkenny?

Perhaps Carmanach - assuming he has Wexford links - will have some idea about this but obviously I'd be thankful for input from anyone.

There is a guy who works in the Placenames Department who could really help you out.

James,
Your question relates to the treatment of historically short vowel before long sonants. As it happens, I did my thesis on the Irish of Co Wexford for my master's degree. I used placename evidence as well as words surviving in colloquial English today as well as other sources such as various historical accounts and the manuscripts of two scribes living in the county in the mid to late eighteenth century, though it is not altogether clear if these were actually born in the county but one at least wrote a long ode in Irish to the Bishop of Ferns. Anyway to get back to the matter at hand:

-ll: Of all the placenames and field names containing poll, by far the commonest pronunciation is with the diphthong /ou/. There are also one or two placenames with /o:/. In the genitive, we have /ai/ in poill from at least two placenames Campile and Rosspile. In the form poillín we have /o/ and /i/ in one example. The word coill was /kail'/ in almost all examples. /ai/ is also found in the genitive of coll; coill. The scribe Séamus Ó Murchadha who certainly lived in the county writes caillteánach instead of coillteánach indicating /ai/. Ó Murchadha himself may not have been born in the county, however.

-nn: In the word gleann the short /a/ vowel is retained in most examples throughout the county although in the extreme north of the county, it appears that /au/ was present as we have this diphthong in gleann and gleanntán in at least three places. We also found /au/ or /ou/ in other examples from the northern half of the county: ancrán, Rounegore < Rann na nGabhar, Bouchal na Gruaga Dhouna. In Shelbourne in the south west we have /u:/ in the field name Bána Fionn rendered "Bána Fune" in the manuscript. Other examples from the north west: crown small < crann smáil, Maurtheen Dhown < Donn. In the same area, though, we find /a:/ in cam. However, it appears that usage was highly mixed as I also have many examples of short vowels in similar situations such as: Ballinagran, Aghnagan, Bing, Bridge Dinn < (Ó) Duinn, Ballyfinn, etc.

-m: Usage again is greatly mixed with diphthongisation, lengthening or retention of short vowel. For example we have a place called The Coom /u:/ in the south east in Forth but Moyacomb /o:/ Templeshannon.

Sorry, those last two examples are two different placenames. Moyacomb < Má an Choma with an /o:/ and Templeshannon written as Tampeelsane in the Civil Survey

Thanks, Carmanach, for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

I had attempted to piece it together from placenames myself but, of course, the Anglicised versions in their spelling are very inconsistent, full of "one-size-fits-all" transcriptions used throughout Ireland which give no indication of local pronunciation e.g. "Kill-", "Glen-", "Tom-" etc. and may date from before the "Great Vowel Shift" and so represent sounds not obvious to modern English speakers.

Your post makes it a lot clearer. Go raibh maith agat.

Are you doing your own research on this, James?

When was Irish last spoke in Wexford? I understand the English spoken in Wexford is old and unusual. My Dad grew up on the Faythe in the town.

It's hard to say exactly. The Department of Irish Folklore in UCD have an account written in 1938 describing events which took place some twenty beforehand. The housekeeper of the parish priest in Cushinstown was listening to a conversation between the priest and (presumably) one of the locals. She says "He was telling him all this in Irish, the way I wouldn't understand". Irish was still relatively strong in the baronies of Bantry and Scarawalsh and Shelbourne until the first quarter of the nineteenth century. Pockets of speakers probably survived elsewhere though when and where the last native speaker died is difficult to say. Donn Piatt himself says he heard native speakers in the county but I forget where and when.

Wow, I had no idea that irish survived that long.

quote:

Are you doing your own research on this, James?

Research? No. I'm just a learner with an interest in the Irish of my local area.


Re. when it was last spoken in Wexford:
My great-grandmother, from what I've heard, had some memories of Irish being spoken in her youth and used many Irish words in her speech.
My mother remembers her always referring to potatoes as "prates" [e:]. This puzzled me as I would have assumed that something along the lines of "prátaí" was used in Wexford Irish, "préataí" being confined to Ulster. But, to my surprise, I recently learned in "Stair na Gaeilge" that "préataí" was actually used close by (lch. 477, "Préata an leagan atá ag Wagner ó dheisceart Chill Chainnigh.")


While on the subject - As someone with knowledge of the dialect, a Charmanaigh, do you know of any features of the Irish of Wexford or south Leinster which amateurs like myself are unlikely to have come across?

It wouldn't surprise me if native speakers existed in all thirty two counties when Conradh na Gaeilge was founded in 1893.

But Wexford must have surely been one of the first counties to lose its Irish speaking community entirely. Even in 1851 only 0.4% of residents were returned as Irish speakers, although this is likely a moderate underestimation.

And south Wexford in particular was one of the most anglicised parts of the country going back centuries.

quote:

It wouldn't surprise me if native speakers existed in all thirty two counties when Conradh na Gaeilge was founded in 1893.

If it's right, I wonder what Conradh na Gaeilge did... why they didn't try to study all these dialects before they disappeared...

Between Conradh na Gaeilge and the Folklore Commission, studies and recordings were carried out for most counties, surely? Even Kilkenny and Tipperary. Perhaps it was too late for places like Wicklow and Kildare. We'll never know.

One needs to be careful of forms such as "praties" and as has already been pointed out, one cannot always rely on placename elements such as Glen-, Kil-, etc. as these tended to be used across the country. There are many places with Glen- in Cork and Kerry where we know the pronunciation on the ground was /g'l'oun/ or /g'l'aun/. "Praties" might not actually be indicative of what was originally said in the local dialect but a form that spread subsequently through Hiberno English. Other words for potato from Wexford are "pyaties" (/pje:ti:/?) and "potáta".

As for south Wexford being one of the most anglicised parts of Ireland, I think you are referring to Forth and Bargy (pronounced with a hard g!!). Yola was never spoken in Shelburne, also in the south. However, even in Forth, in the heart of Yola country, we find the Wexford Independedent in 1849 reporting on a song in Irish from Our Lady's Island performed by a singer who not only was a fine singer but also understood all of the words. Little information apart from this is given unfortunately.

Other interesting features? Well, for me the most fascinating is how the graph -ao- is pronounced in a number of examples. /i:/ is the most common pronunciation (c. 54% of examples examined), /e:/ in 35% and /u:/ in some 11% of samples studied. Now as we know from parts of Ulster and Scotland -ao- is commonly realised as a high unrounded back vowel. In Wexford and in south Leinster this vowel seems to only occur before b, bh, m or n and the lips were rounded which then evolved into /u:/ or /o:/. Examples: Moohawn < Maothán, a field in Templeshanbo, moolyogue < maoileog "hornless cow", Loughmooma < Loch Maoidhme < Loch Maidhme, a former lake in Shelburne. Another example is Moone, Co. Kildare which was originally Maoin. We also have Slieve Bloom < Bladhma < Blaoma.

quote:

As for south Wexford being one of the most anglicised parts of Ireland, I think you are referring to Forth and Bargy (pronounced with a hard g!!). Yola was never spoken in Shelburne, also in the south.

Not only Yola, but 'standard' English in general. Compare the census returns in 1851 and 1891 of Wexford with counties in Munster and Connacht, for example. It was one of the most anglicised counties. The fact someone in 1849 could actually speak Irish there (and that it was reported) just illustrates how exceptional it was at the time.

quote:

"Praties" might not actually be indicative of what was originally said in the local dialect but a form that spread subsequently through Hiberno English.

That's exactly what I would have suspected but the mere fact that "préataí" was in use close by and her use of the (slightly) distinctive "prates" /pre:tz/ as opposed to the usual "praties" could just possibly indicate influence from the local variety of Irish.


Thanks for the information on "ao". I had been under the impression it was generally /e:/ in east and south Leinster. As usual the truth is more complex.